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People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

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Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#201

Post by nicoburns »

zozbot234 wrote: post #21
nicoburns wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think some people have never experienced prolonged periods of suffering, and thus it is hard for them to imagine .

We may have not experienced prolonged pain, but we all have experienced suffering. Life itself is synonymous with suffering, for all but those few master sages who have been successful in conquering all of their cravings and reaching the utmost of equanimity. Suicide itself is virtually always a highly disordered act, that only demonstrates how deeply the person resorting to it is mired in her cravings. While some ki…

> We may have not experienced prolonged pain, but we all have experienced suffering

Sure, but people rarely consider suicide due to momentary suffering, or even suffering for a few weeks or month. People typically consider suicide when they can't see an end to their suffering, and while this is sometimes irrational there are also many cases where it isn't.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#202

Post by zozbot234 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #193
vanviegen wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In others, like this one[0], I find it doubly tragic, as there are proven alternative solutions "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they tried pretty hard to find a better solution. Not everyone can be cured.

> "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they tried pretty hard to find a better solution. First step towards that would be to ditch Anonymous Alcoholics and other religious cult-based "rehabs".

AA and other twelve-steps programs are not inherently "religious-based". They only ask you to believe in some power higher than yourself that you can tap into as a source of inner sternness and restraint. You can call that a spiritual outlook if you like, but it's a very mild one and quite far from any organized or established religion. And it actually works quite well as far as helping people to stop drinking and stay off alcohol for the long term.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#203

Post by pixl97 »

throwawayadvsec wrote: post #129
vanviegen wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In others, like this one[0], I find it doubly tragic, as there are proven alternative solutions "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they tried pretty hard to find a better solution. Not everyone can be cured.

The first step would be to understand that rehab is not the solution to any kind of problem. Rehab is about making a lot of money, not healing people, they benefit from relapsing, they have zero incentive to help people.

Commenting under you on the entire subthread here....

I think this is a two part problem. If you talk to a particular therapist/counselor it would be very rare to find one that doesn't want to see you get better. In general the people at this level are empathetic and do care.

But above that there is a 'rehab system'. You start moving away from the people that want to see other people get better towards that people that want to see the system make as much as much money as possible no matter the cost.

We talk about systems like this all the time here on HN with the term 'Molochs'. Systems where the individual optimum would be X, where X is things people actually like and think are good. Instead the system optimizes towards Y, where Y is far worse outcome for individuals, and individuals are seemingly powerless to stop the system from optimizing on Y.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#204

Post by becquerel »

laratied wrote: post #162
thr-nrg wrote: post #37

I fully intend to kill myself eventually. The idea that I should prolong my life past the point where I get dementia, a degenerative disease, or just plain old age where I can't stand up or whipe my ass is repugnant enough that I can't understand people who want me to suffer until doctors finally stop being able to put me back together. Much better to die cheaply with a wonderful cocktail of opiates while watching a…

Same here. I fear the random nature of a heart attack even more. My ideal is almost to take enough water into the woods to starve in the woods. To really stare my death in the face and experience it slowly. Clinging to life in a nursing home is a fate worse than death to me. I am sure this all depends on having kids or not. Being child free gives many more options.

It is incredibly difficult and miserable to starve to death. Experiencing death slowly - isn't living enough for that?

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#205

Post by [deleted] »

deelly wrote: post #123
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, I personally know folks that have been clean for decades, and went through worse. I’ll be hanging out with a bunch, tonight. Addiction is a very strange problem. Lots of folks have opinions on it, but I have experience with it. And that’s about all I’ll say on the matter.

I don't want to be arrogant or looks like moron, but how can you know that people that you know "went through worse"? How can you measure it? I`m really curious, because all my life I live with understanding that there no way to measure other people feeling, emotions, suffering.

[deleted]

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#206

Post by bluescrn »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #180

1/3 of Canadians support assisted suiciding homeless people or people who will lose their home. Canada finds death the most appropriate solution to suffering. Doctors and administrative staff are making the recommendation directly based on financial circumstance. It's a program the govt spends money on ad marketing and growth. Sounds more like a failure of the 'state and capital' flavor society to me than something t…

Is that more or less compassionate than leaving them to die on the streets?

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#207

Post by zozbot234 »

nicoburns wrote: post #201
zozbot234 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We may have not experienced prolonged pain, but we all have experienced suffering. Life itself is synonymous with suffering, for all but those few master sages who have been successful in conquering all of their cravings and reaching the utmost of equanimity. Suicide itself is virtually always a highly disordered act, that only demonstrates how deeply the person resorting to it is mired in her cravings. While some ki…

> We may have not experienced prolonged pain, but we all have experienced suffering Sure, but people rarely consider suicide due to momentary suffering, or even suffering for a few weeks or month. People typically consider suicide when they can't see an end to their suffering, and while this is sometimes irrational there are also many cases where it isn't.

I've already pointed out that suffering is inherent to life for most of us, so it encompasses far more than "a few weeks or month[s]". You seem to be focusing on the aversion of physical or spiritual pain, but that's merely one sort of suffering which is not different in nature from the far subtler and less obvious suffering we all experience throughout our lives.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#208

Post by s1artibartfast »

Name_Chawps wrote: post #138
Wronnay wrote: post #47

"Why hasn’t the number of deaths by suicide decreased?" That housing and groceries is getting more and more expensive certainly doesn't help with that... Of course, not so many people in this world suffer anymore from hunger but in the last years additional problems came up. I know some older people who think that Depression is just a excuse for not wanting to work but these older people had it easier to build or buy…

You truly think housing and food have anything to do with it? We live in the richest society in history, and also the most suicidal. Why don't people living in true poverty around the world feel depressed and kill themselves like we do? Why do we kill ourselves? It's because we have no communities anymore. Many of us are alone. Some call it a loneliness epidemic. And we've replaced community with social media. Our so…

I think it is more than just loss of communities, although that is a big part of it.

It is also a hallowing out of the human experience and the inability to enjoy simple pleasures available to anyone alive.

Consumerism is so deeply entrenched in the minds of people that they usually blame their unhappiness on a lack of material goods and external factors.

Meanwhile, There are millions or billions of people who can find pleasure and satisfaction with with practically nothing. Enjoying a quiet cup of tea in hovels, reading books for pleasure, or taking in everyday beauty.

To me, this indicates that a large part of dissatisfaction on depression are about mindset, which should be obvious.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#209

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

kstenerud wrote: post #161
s1artibartfast wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is saying it's easy or that people are invalid here.

ChrisMarshallNY is sitting in judgment of the fellow in Holland who made use of the euthanasia laws there. Specifically: "I find it doubly tragic, as there are proven alternative solutions" (judgment) "I personally know many people that were once far worse off than that gentleman, and are now doing quite well" (justification that invalidates the man's suffering) "Lots of folks have opinions on it, but I have experien…

You have a point, but I would submit that "desecrating the man's legacy" is a bit ... shall we say ... over-the-top ... rhetoric?

I assume that you have known many, many folks like him (and like me), and are comfortable being extremely and overtly judgmental.

Too bad. I looked at your GH profile, and I suspect that we'd find a lot in common.

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