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People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

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Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#211

Post by s1artibartfast »

Retric wrote: post #195
s1artibartfast wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find that to be overly invalidating or judgmental. There is a difference between saying you think someone is/was wrong, and denying their humanity.

It’s the definition of judgmental to say someone is wrong like that. You’re judging their actions as wrong.

Note that I said overly judgmental. Judgment itself is part of the human condition. You can judge an action or choice without demeaning or dehumanizing the person. You can even do it from a place of empathy understanding and compassion.

The idea of that people shouldn't or can't judge any choice or action another makes is absurd at face value.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#212

Post by mschuster91 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #202
mschuster91 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they tried pretty hard to find a better solution. First step towards that would be to ditch Anonymous Alcoholics and other religious cult-based "rehabs".

AA and other twelve-steps programs are not inherently "religious-based". They only ask you to believe in some power higher than yourself that you can tap into as a source of inner sternness and restraint. You can call that a spiritual outlook if you like, but it's a very mild one and quite far from any organized or established religion. And it actually works quite well as far as helping people to stop drinking and st…

There have been many that linked it to being cultist (e.g. [1]).

> And it actually works quite well as far as helping people to stop drinking and stay off alcohol for the long term.

In any case, that is my biggest issue with AA and a lot of other "abstinence" programs (particularly those mandated by courts): they all but mandate that complete and utter sobriety is the only acceptable way instead of helping people to moderate their consumption or to find out and fix why they are consuming substances. Someone who's in hurt because their partner died or cheated upon them or they lost their job or home (these four causes are behind a lot of addiction careers) doesn't need a sobriety program run by questionably or barely qualified random joes, they need professional counseling.

[1] https://www.skeptic.org.uk/2023/03/from-the-archives-exposin...

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#213

Post by wonderwonder »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #30

This is something that I have had some personal experience with. I've known quite a few suicides, and survivors of the suicides of others. Very much a "walk a mile in a man's shoes" kind of thing. Everyone has opinions on the matter, until it hits them. Then, they have personal experience (not just an opinion). It sucks. In some cases, I can see why someone would want to end it all. In others, like this one[0], I fin…

Trying not to judge this guy but to put your parents through that seems unimaginable to me. Could not comprehend gathering my family around to watch me kill myself.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#215

Post by hasbot »

harimau777 wrote: post #107

I've heard someone describe suicidal ideation as like being halfway through a multiplayer game where you are getting stomped: It's not that you want to rage quit, it's just that the outcome feels inevitable so you wish you could skip to the end. Or like turning off a ball game early when your team is down by an insurmountable points at the end of the third quarter. For at least some people, it may not be that they wa…

My religious sister is anxious to move on to Heaven. She's not suicidal but at 60 tired/bored of her dull life. Since Heaven is the end goal she doesn't have much motivation in enhancing her life.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#216

Post by omgmajk »

cedws wrote: post #103
martindbp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much easier said than done. I doubt you'll feel the same way when that old age approaches, just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40.

>just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40 Sorry but... it kind of is, no? You've probably got a family weighing you down so you can't travel anymore. You don't have the freedom to start new exciting ventures. You can't quit your sucky job because it supports your family. You go to parties that end at 9pm and your social gatherings consist of talking about traffic and grocery prices. You're probabl…

You sound like you're 13, not 22. I'm 38 and nothing what you said is true for me nor any of my friends.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#217

Post by bizbizbizbiz »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #77
probably_wrong wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sidenote: You might want to describe that link, as The Independent redirects based on location and/or device language. All I get is the front page.

It's about a chap in Holland that was a recidivist alcoholic, who took advantage of the Dutch Euthanasia laws, to end his life. There's really no way to put a positive spin on it. It sucks, no matter what opinions we hold on the matter. The laws aren't the issue. If someone really wants to end things; they will. I have seen it many times, and alternative means can be absolutely devastating to the survivors.

In the article, the family of the patient cited that his alcoholism was secondary to his depression - a symptom of the bigger thing he was suffering from. The article goes to lengths though (see: title) to put the focus on “an alcoholic was euthanized.”

The brother’s relevant quote:

> "My brother suffered from depression and anxiety and tried to 'cure' it with alcohol. He's from a normal family, he did not want this to happen. He did not take an easy way out. Just a humane one.

> "If that's troubling for Mrs Bruce that's a pity. I am just glad my brother did not have to jump in front of a train or live a few more years in agony before dying of his abuse.

I can’t tell you for sure what is fact, but I’m inclined to take the more rational explanation of the family over the irrational “this was an alcoholic choosing death over rehab.”

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#218

Post by scruple »

mschuster91 wrote: post #193
vanviegen wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In others, like this one[0], I find it doubly tragic, as there are proven alternative solutions "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they tried pretty hard to find a better solution. Not everyone can be cured.

> "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they tried pretty hard to find a better solution. First step towards that would be to ditch Anonymous Alcoholics and other religious cult-based "rehabs".

Have you been to an AA meeting?

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#219

Post by s1artibartfast »

cesaref wrote: post #113
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, I personally know folks that have been clean for decades, and went through worse. I’ll be hanging out with a bunch, tonight. Addiction is a very strange problem. Lots of folks have opinions on it, but I have experience with it. And that’s about all I’ll say on the matter.

I've always found it interesting that addictive behaviour is often seen as a virtue by our society if it's about the 'right sort of thing' (as far as society is concerned). We end up considering people as 'dedicated' or 'committed' to some cause or other. If they are a workaholic, or pious, or a sports superstar, or a concert pianist, chances are there is an addictive personality that just happens to have gotten atta…

Addiction is defined by the negative impact on the addict, not the behavior itself.

It is a semantics game. Drive, Focus, and motivation are just that unless they are maladaptive and detrimental to the individual.

These behaviors only become addiction when they run counter to the goals and desires of the individual.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#220

Post by omginternets »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #66
vanviegen wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In others, like this one[0], I find it doubly tragic, as there are proven alternative solutions "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they tried pretty hard to find a better solution. Not everyone can be cured.

Like I said, I personally know folks that have been clean for decades, and went through worse. I’ll be hanging out with a bunch, tonight. Addiction is a very strange problem. Lots of folks have opinions on it, but I have experience with it. And that’s about all I’ll say on the matter.

I’d appreciate it if you didn’t dismiss everybody’s opinions on the matter for lack of direct experience. You’re setting things up to avoid debate.
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