Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip • Hacker News Board

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#221

Post by Dirlewanger » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 4:06 PM UTC

njsubedi wrote: post #31

sundvor wrote: post #27

You want all people to do the right thing? Fine them if they don't. It's the only thing that's helped us get the virus under control. Greetings from Melbourne, Victoria, currently on stage 4 lockdown because enough people are selfish and don't care (unless threatened). EDIT: (Leaving my original text unmodified above) Agree that this sounds crass, and probably not very cultivated by HN's standards, but it's from the…

Yes, same goes for following traffic rules. You cannot just fix the traffic problems by patting people on the back for stopping at the red light. You need to fine people as much as possible; the higher the fines, the lower the cases of traffic rules violation.

Except they aren't effective, and have done nothing but piss people off. Many municipalities have been getting rid of them for years now.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#222

Post by aeturnum » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 4:15 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #91

aeturnum wrote: post #20

I agree that framing issues in a way that allows people to avoid feeling like they have done something wrong is more effective. I also think most activists are aware of this. I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. Hard to know what one could buy to stop police brutality right now, for instance. I suspect people will come up with things. When I see a prote…

> I see the Social Justice left as being in a phase like "young atheists"[2] or young gay people go through when they first embrace their identity: loud and proud and insistent that others recognize their validity. Can this get expanded on a little bit? How does one recognise some else's validity? I get the simultaneous feeling that leaving them alone isn't what they want, and me waving my hands and pronouncing them…

> How does one recognise some else's validity?

Actually a very hard question with a million answers for a million different combinations of identity and scenarios.

At a high level I think recognizing validity takes the form of a social acknowledgement that someone else as "as much" right as us to be in public space. You can think about LGTBQ+ folks going out glammed-to-the-gills, or how the modern gay rights movement started after police raided a gay bar for no particular reason, or slut marches protesting sexual harassment. These are all people doing things in public that are taboo in a way that's related to their identity (gay people acknowledging their sexuality in public / people dressing in revealing ways) and demanding they be treated with respect. Often even if they are shouting rude things.

For a more heteronormative example you could think about the distraught parent who might break social norms when their child is hurt or killed. If you're a doctor and you have to tell the parents their child is dead and they scream at you, you don't treat them like they're random people on the street. You respect their validity and understand that they are dealing with a lot and your feelings aren't top of mind[1].

It can also be as small as not asking where someone who is a little racially ambiguous "where they're from" before you get to know them. Not because the question is rude exactly, but because it's probably a question they get a lot and it highlights the difference in your backgrounds.

[1] This is actually very hard on medical professionals even if we all understand!

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#223

Post by aeturnum » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

mlang23 wrote: post #93

aeturnum wrote: post #20

I agree that framing issues in a way that allows people to avoid feeling like they have done something wrong is more effective. I also think most activists are aware of this. I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. Hard to know what one could buy to stop police brutality right now, for instance. I suspect people will come up with things. When I see a prote…

I wish you could leave religion out of your analysis. It would make it much easier to believe you.

Religion, whatever else it is, is part of the human experience. Religious traditions are some of the oldest organizations in existence. Whatever the nature of god, they all deal with reassuring the faithful and attracting the unconverted, which was why I thought they comparison was apt.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#224

Post by guerrilla » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

orestarod wrote: post #212

guerrilla wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is the emphasis on white people and not wealth? Because that's who has wealth [1] and they have it because they stole it from other groups via forced labor and literal theft of land and other resources and then explicitly disadvantaged them in post facto competition. [1]. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/03/politics/black-white-us-f...

The ruling class stole these, not "white people". Throughout the history and the world, all places and races had their own class of oppressors, surprise - usually from the same race as the oppressed, and of course from a very wide racial variety. That US were built first from white colonists, who set the precedent for that place, does not mean whites are any different that other races in oppression. The ruling class…

Well said and reasoned; however, not all oppression is class based. My claim is that racism is a secondary oppression upon the first that you describe which white people (or whoever in other places) benefit from and participate in maintaining. It is true the inequality between the classes is much greater than any other but that doesn't mean that the others don't exist. I agree especially with your last point though and didn't intend to communicate otherwise.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#225

Post by darth_avocado » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

jagrsw wrote: post #76

didibus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". Another good one I'm trying recently is: "You're right to think that given the information you know, and here's some more information you should consider." Oh and: "That's a great hypothesis, here's another one."

> I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". How does it work with e.g.? A: 2+2=5 B: Yes and.... I've seen this advice in some local guideline for holding effective meetings, but there are certain scenarios where saying 'yes and' or 'this might be true from your POV, but please consider' feels more like trying to manipulate someone than just trying to figure out something (…

> How does it work with e.g.?

Yes and .... you're wrong you idiot

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#226

Post by darth_avocado » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

throwaway316943 wrote: post #129

didibus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". Another good one I'm trying recently is: "You're right to think that given the information you know, and here's some more information you should consider." Oh and: "That's a great hypothesis, here's another one."

Those are both pretty condescending. Convincing someone is the same as correcting a math problem, work through the chain of reasoning until you find the error. The problem is you need to establish trust and good will to do this. Building rapport first and agreeing that you will both act in good faith before going through the reasoning. Just saying “you’re right” and “that’s great” are pretty weak attempts and will be…

You're assuming people are reasonable. They're not most of the times.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#227

Post by raxxorrax » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 5:29 PM UTC

himinlomax wrote: post #140

aeturnum wrote: post #20

I agree that framing issues in a way that allows people to avoid feeling like they have done something wrong is more effective. I also think most activists are aware of this. I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. Hard to know what one could buy to stop police brutality right now, for instance. I suspect people will come up with things. When I see a prote…

> I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. The opposite of guilt-tripping is not "positive, uplifting." Let's take a contemporary example: Guilt-tripping: "when you don't wear a mask you're KILLING grandma." Positive, uplifting (and also BS): "those new designer masks are so cute and trendy!" Using social proof without guilt tripping: "as more and more peop…

Fully agree. Neither preaching nor ad financed well-being articles are particularly interesting if we are talking about news.

We still have the problem of overzealous banning of content/language/bad opinions. To suggest feel-good articles as a solution sounds a little bit too dystopian.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#228

Post by taurath » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 5:53 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #80

taurath wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I must say, though this thought is controversial. If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Not personal guilt, as few even living today are directly responsible for the systems that came before. But guilt from being born into privilege in a society built entirely to benefit you, from the net worth of your parents, to the quiet mono-racial neighborhoo…

Should you self-flagellate for being born in the situation you are in? How would that benefit anyone? Guilt is a negative emotion, and in my opinion you shouldn't have to do penance for things you have no control over. Instead, you can use your position of privilege to do good in whatever way fits. My small contribution, I run an online community (~1000 members in our Discord server) with a zero tolerance policy on r…

Again, you shouldn't feel guilt for yourself, but you should feel guilt for your ancestors. Not self-flagellation. And you should attempt some penance if you are able - sometimes that just involves welcoming people into spaces with you.

What is not tolerable to me is to pretend you are not, at least in part, a result of a long string of advantages. That your relative power comes with responsibility. And to not put your head in the sand and grow hateful of the disadvantaged.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#229

Post by taurath » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 5:55 PM UTC

peltier wrote: post #96

guerrilla wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have no control over Faulty assumption here. You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

>white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it. Why is the emphasis on white people and not wealth? There are so many different historical groups of "white people" I completely fail to take a submissive approach to the whole us race debate. Sure you guys have massive issues that stem from a long line of segregationist policies. Europe has its problems, but implying that…

> Why is the emphasis on white people and not wealth?

Because of the amount of violence that has and is taking place entirely on the basis of race rather than wealth.

Wealth is certainly a thing. But those who talk about how all these problems are just about economic class are sweeping the thousands of race-based and racist policies and actions under the rug.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#230

Post by raxxorrax » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

SamBam wrote: post #178

DFHippie wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling guilt tripping manipulation is a little dramatic given that people use the expression to encompass anything that makes them feel guilty whether it's intended to or not. If you drive an efficient car, ride a bike, or walk, some people, varying numbers according to where you are, will be righteously outraged that you're guilt-tripping them. Also, "manipulation" suggests unfair trickery. If you're guilt-tripped…

Indeed. The number of times I've heard that driving an electric car or a bike is "virtue signaling" is amazing. I think, if you're so focused on the "signaling" -- the notion that someone is just doing that to provoke an emotional response -- then all that's saying to me is that it's provoking guilt in you, and that's made you feel angry.

It is not used to provoke a response, it is more about signaling political affiliation.

I think virtue signaling is synonymous with dog whistling, but different jargon is used by different partisan groups.

It depends what messages and from whom. From corporations? From politicians? From advertisers? In CVs? I think it would be prudent to consider motivation in some cases, but it is a subjective assessment still, as might be the message.

I hope car/bike choice will never be a political statement. That would be a loss for everyone. Not everything should be regarded as that as it would suggest severe bitterness.