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Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

psyche.co

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Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#91

Post by roenxi »

aeturnum wrote: post #20

I agree that framing issues in a way that allows people to avoid feeling like they have done something wrong is more effective. I also think most activists are aware of this. I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. Hard to know what one could buy to stop police brutality right now, for instance. I suspect people will come up with things. When I see a prote…

> I see the Social Justice left as being in a phase like "young atheists"[2] or young gay people go through when they first embrace their identity: loud and proud and insistent that others recognize their validity.

Can this get expanded on a little bit? How does one recognise some else's validity?

I get the simultaneous feeling that leaving them alone isn't what they want, and me waving my hands and pronouncing them (eg, a young gay) valid is likely to get a very negative reaction. Who am I to decide what is and isn't valid. What exactly does that mean in a what-do-they-want sense?

My guess is they want other people to copy them so they can build a community, but I'm sure there are other interpretations.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#92

Post by rusk »

mpfundstein wrote: post #81
taurath wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I must say, though this thought is controversial. If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Not personal guilt, as few even living today are directly responsible for the systems that came before. But guilt from being born into privilege in a society built entirely to benefit you, from the net worth of your parents, to the quiet mono-racial neighborhoo…

what kind of twisted stuff is this? what could I do to not be born to well off parents? nothing lol people who carry this pointless guilts should see a shrink maybe. they might suffer from something

I think you're on to something here. That a lot of the most enraged people probably have some underlying condition that isn't being addressed. Furthermore en masse such folk are being actively manipulated to political ends. Sadly, professional treatment in certain jurisdicitons seems to involve prescription of opiates which likely just exacerbates things. Maybe that's the point.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#93

Post by mlang23 »

aeturnum wrote: post #20

I agree that framing issues in a way that allows people to avoid feeling like they have done something wrong is more effective. I also think most activists are aware of this. I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. Hard to know what one could buy to stop police brutality right now, for instance. I suspect people will come up with things. When I see a prote…

I wish you could leave religion out of your analysis. It would make it much easier to believe you.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#94

Post by cyberdrunk »

guerrilla wrote: post #87
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should you self-flagellate for being born in the situation you are in? How would that benefit anyone? Guilt is a negative emotion, and in my opinion you shouldn't have to do penance for things you have no control over. Instead, you can use your position of privilege to do good in whatever way fits. My small contribution, I run an online community (~1000 members in our Discord server) with a zero tolerance policy on r…

> you have no control over Faulty assumption here. You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

Most white people have very little money and even less power.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#95

Post by raxxorrax »

Nursie wrote: post #88
ccleve wrote: post #25

Lovely. A psychological study on how to manipulate people into supporting your social agenda. How about using, you know, reason? Treating them like adults? Give them pros and cons so they can make a rational decision?

> Give them pros and cons so they can make a rational decision? If that actually worked we wouldn't be having this conversation. People, particularly in large groups, use emotion, tribalism and ego protection over reason. If reason and fact worked well to change minds, we wouldn't have idiots "rolling coal".

This is actually a pretty naturalistic explanation and probably mostly wrong. I think people quickly see that you perceive them as idiots and then the ego does indeed run its course. and rightly so.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#96

Post by peltier »

guerrilla wrote: post #87
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should you self-flagellate for being born in the situation you are in? How would that benefit anyone? Guilt is a negative emotion, and in my opinion you shouldn't have to do penance for things you have no control over. Instead, you can use your position of privilege to do good in whatever way fits. My small contribution, I run an online community (~1000 members in our Discord server) with a zero tolerance policy on r…

> you have no control over Faulty assumption here. You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

>white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

Why is the emphasis on white people and not wealth? There are so many different historical groups of "white people"

I completely fail to take a submissive approach to the whole us race debate. Sure you guys have massive issues that stem from a long line of segregationist policies. Europe has its problems, but implying that this should lead to some sort of White only redistribution of wealth will lead to bloodshed.

Who the fuck thought it would be a good idea to equate class war with race war? Henry kissinger?

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#97

Post by guerrilla »

rusk wrote: post #90
guerrilla wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have no control over Faulty assumption here. You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

> white people holding on to their money and power That there is a racist statement. Yes maybe intergenerational wealth causes some issues but to cast it as a purely white issue is just stupid. Avarice is a feature common to all of humanity.

> That there is a racist statement.

Hardly. It has nothing to do with who or what they are but rather is literally a description of what they are doing.

> white issue

It is a white issue that white people oppress others and are the only ones with the power to stop that short of violent overthrow.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#98

Post by guerrilla »

cyberdrunk wrote: post #94
guerrilla wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have no control over Faulty assumption here. You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

Most white people have very little money and even less power.

No, actually, not on average. [1]

[1]. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/03/politics/black-white-us-f...

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#99

Post by mlang23 »

guerrilla wrote: post #87
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should you self-flagellate for being born in the situation you are in? How would that benefit anyone? Guilt is a negative emotion, and in my opinion you shouldn't have to do penance for things you have no control over. Instead, you can use your position of privilege to do good in whatever way fits. My small contribution, I run an online community (~1000 members in our Discord server) with a zero tolerance policy on r…

> you have no control over Faulty assumption here. You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

I am white, granted. However, I have no extraordinary power nor am I really wealthy. Pushing these buttons, implying that I should be guilty for what I am, is only increasing the divide between the races. Accusing me of playing an acitve part in supressing others is simply a false allegation. This is racist. And you dont even realize! Both sides will have to work on how they communicate with each other to improve things.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#100

Post by guerrilla »

peltier wrote: post #96
guerrilla wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have no control over Faulty assumption here. You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

>white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it. Why is the emphasis on white people and not wealth? There are so many different historical groups of "white people" I completely fail to take a submissive approach to the whole us race debate. Sure you guys have massive issues that stem from a long line of segregationist policies. Europe has its problems, but implying that…

> Why is the emphasis on white people and not wealth?

Because that's who has wealth [1] and they have it because they stole it from other groups via forced labor and literal theft of land and other resources and then explicitly disadvantaged them in post facto competition.

[1]. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/03/politics/black-white-us-f...

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