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Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

psyche.co

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Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#81

Post by mpfundstein »

taurath wrote: post #65
peterpeppers wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting point. Martin Luther King Jr spoke quite a bit about addressing GUILT before he was killed. Unfortunately for all of us, he was incredibly unpopular before his death due to his position on the Vietnam War so his message on guilt is lost to transcripts. QUOTE: "The Negro needs the white man to save him from his fears, the white man needs the Negro to save him from his GUILT. We are tied together in so many…

And I must say, though this thought is controversial. If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Not personal guilt, as few even living today are directly responsible for the systems that came before. But guilt from being born into privilege in a society built entirely to benefit you, from the net worth of your parents, to the quiet mono-racial neighborhoo…

what kind of twisted stuff is this? what could I do to not be born to well off parents? nothing lol

people who carry this pointless guilts should see a shrink maybe. they might suffer from something

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#82

Post by h0l0cube »

sundvor wrote: post #27

You want all people to do the right thing? Fine them if they don't. It's the only thing that's helped us get the virus under control. Greetings from Melbourne, Victoria, currently on stage 4 lockdown because enough people are selfish and don't care (unless threatened). EDIT: (Leaving my original text unmodified above) Agree that this sounds crass, and probably not very cultivated by HN's standards, but it's from the…

> Greetings from Melbourne, Victoria, currently on stage 4 lockdown because enough people are selfish and don't care (unless threatened).

Much of the second wave was due to mishandling of the hotel quarantine program. Given the complexity of such operations it was more likely bad luck than mal-intent. It does, however, highlight the problem of using un-vetted privatized staffing for such critical operations, and then under-training them.

Add to those blunders Melbourne's excellent public transport system that everyone depends on, a lack of mandatory mask policy, and you have the perfect storm.

"Department of Health and Human Services epidemiologist Dr Prof Charles Alpren told the inquiry that for Victorians who had developed symptoms over the past month, 1,589 had been genetically sequenced. Of those, 1,577 were linked to the cluster from Rydges, and 12 from Stamford. There were no other genetically linked clusters in Melbourne."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/22/appalling-and-...

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#83

Post by lambdatronics »

aeturnum wrote: post #20

I agree that framing issues in a way that allows people to avoid feeling like they have done something wrong is more effective. I also think most activists are aware of this. I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. Hard to know what one could buy to stop police brutality right now, for instance. I suspect people will come up with things. When I see a prote…

> recognize their validity.

Exactly. The behavioral change is one thing, but who's gonna do the emotional work?

>I also think most activists are aware of this.

Maybe, but I suspect that often it's just as important to the activists/choir to wring an apology/conviction out of the others. Settling out of court (to mix metaphors) is not as satisfying.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#84

Post by raxxorrax »

pinopinopino wrote: post #72

Ah, propaganda 101: "If you want to influence your enemy, make sure he/she sympathizes with you". I also read an interesting article about this, that conservatives do care about the environment if you give it the correct emotional cue. E.g. instead of saying they have to save the environment for the future generation (which perhaps generates a guilty feeling), we want to preserve nature to keep it as it is (which the…

In the corporate world we learn to take everything we can get and are rewarded for it. For our direct benefit like compensation. Not saying understatement isn't something a good image of a leader requires today, but most people know it is dishonest in practice and are just fine with keeping up appearances.

Why should I not apply that to the resources of our environment? Future generations? Right, they will be okay as it is. Leading by example might help, but modesty isn't something we transport in pop or corporate culture.

Conservatives were the original environment protectors in the US. Probably politics that drove them away from it. In the current political climate dogmatism is spread pretty evenly.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#85

Post by h0l0cube »

logicchains wrote: post #60
sundvor wrote: post #27

You want all people to do the right thing? Fine them if they don't. It's the only thing that's helped us get the virus under control. Greetings from Melbourne, Victoria, currently on stage 4 lockdown because enough people are selfish and don't care (unless threatened). EDIT: (Leaving my original text unmodified above) Agree that this sounds crass, and probably not very cultivated by HN's standards, but it's from the…

>Greetings from Melbourne, Victoria, currently on stage 4 lockdown because enough people are selfish and don't care (unless threatened). It's because your governor adopted a stupid policy that doesn't account for human nature. How well has banning drugs and teen drinking worked to limit those? It failed completely. How could anybody in their right mind believe the same heavy-handed approach is optimal for dealing wit…

> It's because your governor adopted a stupid policy

The 'Premier' of Victoria, was one of the first to move, and the policies in place were holding up. Mismanagement of the mandatory hotel quarantine system caused an outbreak just days after restrictions were being lifted across the country. Using under-trained security guards was a mis-step, but for the outbreak to happen at this crucial moment was more a failure in execution of the policy, than the policy itself.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24280156

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#87

Post by guerrilla »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #80
taurath wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I must say, though this thought is controversial. If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Not personal guilt, as few even living today are directly responsible for the systems that came before. But guilt from being born into privilege in a society built entirely to benefit you, from the net worth of your parents, to the quiet mono-racial neighborhoo…

Should you self-flagellate for being born in the situation you are in? How would that benefit anyone? Guilt is a negative emotion, and in my opinion you shouldn't have to do penance for things you have no control over. Instead, you can use your position of privilege to do good in whatever way fits. My small contribution, I run an online community (~1000 members in our Discord server) with a zero tolerance policy on r…

> you have no control over

Faulty assumption here. You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#88

Post by Nursie »

ccleve wrote: post #25

Lovely. A psychological study on how to manipulate people into supporting your social agenda. How about using, you know, reason? Treating them like adults? Give them pros and cons so they can make a rational decision?

> Give them pros and cons so they can make a rational decision?

If that actually worked we wouldn't be having this conversation. People, particularly in large groups, use emotion, tribalism and ego protection over reason.

If reason and fact worked well to change minds, we wouldn't have idiots "rolling coal".

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#89

Post by raxxorrax »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #80
taurath wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I must say, though this thought is controversial. If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Not personal guilt, as few even living today are directly responsible for the systems that came before. But guilt from being born into privilege in a society built entirely to benefit you, from the net worth of your parents, to the quiet mono-racial neighborhoo…

Should you self-flagellate for being born in the situation you are in? How would that benefit anyone? Guilt is a negative emotion, and in my opinion you shouldn't have to do penance for things you have no control over. Instead, you can use your position of privilege to do good in whatever way fits. My small contribution, I run an online community (~1000 members in our Discord server) with a zero tolerance policy on r…

I don't tend to visit too many communities that are "run", but am member in quite a few where it works without zero tolerance policies. They tend to be more peaceful and honest in my opinion. Maybe they require common ground, but it works somehow.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#90

Post by rusk »

guerrilla wrote: post #87
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should you self-flagellate for being born in the situation you are in? How would that benefit anyone? Guilt is a negative emotion, and in my opinion you shouldn't have to do penance for things you have no control over. Instead, you can use your position of privilege to do good in whatever way fits. My small contribution, I run an online community (~1000 members in our Discord server) with a zero tolerance policy on r…

> you have no control over Faulty assumption here. You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

> white people holding on to their money and power

That there is a racist statement. Yes maybe intergenerational wealth causes some issues but to cast it as a purely white issue is just stupid. Avarice is a feature common to all of humanity.

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