"you're wrong" - Best way to win over someone you disagree with
Right up there with telling an angry person to "calm down".
Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip
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Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip
#22"The potential of positive self-directed emotions has largely not been embraced by activists. The worry could be that it might make those engaging in the cause appear self-satisfied or selfish. But these studies suggest that, instead of focusing on ‘doom and gloom’ messaging that zooms in on people’s shortcomings and risks alienating them, policymakers and strategists might find that positive messaging, speaking to p…
> I think negative, external reinforcement has a much stronger real-world case.
Actually, occasional and positive reinforcement has been shown to be the best way to change behavior. Slot machines (and the most successful games) are based on this principle.[0]
> One only needs to look at the behaviour in countries like China or Japan, where guilt and social punishment has been used as a tool for probably thousands of years, with actual results. Singapore's a place that is well known for getting people to do the right thing, I'm not sure they managed to do it with pats on the back.
Have you lived within any of these cultures enough to understand what motivates those within them? How do you know how much pride is a factor for them?
I can imagine authoritarian rule, and brutal punishment, or a history of either, may change the behaviour of people. But that is very different to the passive mechanism of guilt.
[0] Different reinforcement schedules and their efficacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Simple_schedules
Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip
#23"The potential of positive self-directed emotions has largely not been embraced by activists. The worry could be that it might make those engaging in the cause appear self-satisfied or selfish. But these studies suggest that, instead of focusing on ‘doom and gloom’ messaging that zooms in on people’s shortcomings and risks alienating them, policymakers and strategists might find that positive messaging, speaking to p…
In different countries, the same law with the same penalty has different rates of law-breaking, so you can't necessarily draw a clear line of "this works, this doesn't" in every country/case. Yes, being harsh can have results. Does that mean its results are better than a different tact? The evidence of one method alone doesn't show you that, you have to experiment or study the same situation with both methods. There…
Citations?
Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip
#24If only dentist would follow this practice
I cannot agree with you more. The last thing I need from a dentist, and the first thing I will get from a dentist, is a lecture about what brought me in to the dentist. I know why I need to go see a dentist. I don't need them to repeat back to me what I've been telling myself but with a flavoring of guilt-trip, I need to know how bad it is and what to do to move forward.
You need to cut them some slack too, they're just human. Every doctor will think the part of the body they're responsible for is the most important.
If people actually followed all the different doctors' advice, they'd be healthier, sure, but only because they spend every waking moment taking care of their X body part.
Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip
#25Lovely. A psychological study on how to manipulate people into supporting your social agenda.
How about using, you know, reason? Treating them like adults? Give them pros and cons so they can make a rational decision?
Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip
#26...in the context where collective problems are foisted on the individual.
I ain't gonna start ragging on individuals less for individual failures. Communication is the only way forward.
Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip
#27You want all people to do the right thing? Fine them if they don't. It's the only thing that's helped us get the virus under control.
Greetings from Melbourne, Victoria, currently on stage 4 lockdown because enough people are selfish and don't care (unless threatened).
EDIT: (Leaving my original text unmodified above) Agree that this sounds crass, and probably not very cultivated by HN's standards, but it's from the point of view of extreme frustration with the situation - having done all the right things myself, only to see it undone by others who just don't care.
I did observe significant changes of behaviour after the fines started getting press coverage. I believe it is indeed incredibly hard to reach out and educate the masses, but when the health of our society depends very much on the last few %s doing the right thing, and this segment is so hard to get to, then drastic measures do have a play. It definitely ought to be backed up by other educational efforts though.
This crisis is making me think hard about where we draw the lines on individual freedom, when they can cause harm to others. Also, having said the above, a number of breachers were in the upper echelons of society financially wise - so it's definitely not a clear cut thing about who needs to start caring more.
Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
I cannot agree with you more. The last thing I need from a dentist, and the first thing I will get from a dentist, is a lecture about what brought me in to the dentist. I know why I need to go see a dentist. I don't need them to repeat back to me what I've been telling myself but with a flavoring of guilt-trip, I need to know how bad it is and what to do to move forward.
You need to cut them some slack too, they're just human. Every doctor will think the part of the body they're responsible for is the most important. If people actually followed all the different doctors' advice, they'd be healthier, sure, but only because they spend every waking moment taking care of their X body part.
Point taken. Thank you.
Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip
#29Lovely. A psychological study on how to manipulate people into supporting your social agenda. How about using, you know, reason? Treating them like adults? Give them pros and cons so they can make a rational decision?
Unfortunately people don’t work that way. People are highly influenced by the way things are presented. There are numerous examples of this. See Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman for a good primer.
Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip
#30You want all people to do the right thing? Fine them if they don't. It's the only thing that's helped us get the virus under control. Greetings from Melbourne, Victoria, currently on stage 4 lockdown because enough people are selfish and don't care (unless threatened). EDIT: (Leaving my original text unmodified above) Agree that this sounds crass, and probably not very cultivated by HN's standards, but it's from the…
The problem is more nuanced.
Nobody can argue fines for socially unacceptable behaviour don't work. They do.
The problem is that this method of ruling only goes so far.
Eventually you run into situations where a significant enough portion of the population believes something different from another.
Its in these situations, fines and laws prohibiting actions (alcohol, abortion), that things start to fail and where positive reinforcement starts to win out.
All this is with the caveat that I don't want to live in a non free society, if that's on the table, then yes, negative reinforcement works fine, if you don't mind attending the odd struggle session in a north Korean death camp.