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Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

psyche.co

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Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#171

Post by DFHippie »

cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

Calling guilt tripping manipulation is a little dramatic given that people use the expression to encompass anything that makes them feel guilty whether it's intended to or not. If you drive an efficient car, ride a bike, or walk, some people, varying numbers according to where you are, will be righteously outraged that you're guilt-tripping them.

Also, "manipulation" suggests unfair trickery. If you're guilt-tripped for speeding in a school zone, is that unfair trickery? There are rules that are meant to constrain people from infringing on other people's rights and security. How are we supposed to enforce them? Should every anti-social activity be enforced by a fine or prison time? That's considerably harsher than a moment of social discomfort when you realize someone is shaming you.

Finally, calling this "evil" is exhausting your evaluative vocabulary too quickly. Guilt-tripping someone for anti-social behavior can certainly be less harmful than guilt-tripping them for pro-social behavior, which is less harmful than the anti-social behavior itself, and so forth.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#172

Post by h0l0cube »

logicchains wrote: post #128
guerrilla wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have no control over Faulty assumption here. You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

>You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it. An alternative way to look at it: what did western civilisation do to grow such a huge amount of wealth compared to the rest of the world? What could the rest of the world learn fro…

> what did western civilisation do to grow such a huge amount of wealth compared to the rest of the world?

Many civilizations have taken turns at doing this, from ancient Mesopotamia, now part of the Middle East, and onwards. There's nothing exceptional about Western civilization, in this regard. Nor, I suspect, will the US hegemony -- which was gained by selling arms to both sides of 2 world wars which both crippled the former hegemony -- be exceptional.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#173

Post by throwanem »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #164
throwanem wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not much that any one of us can do alone. Refusing to make excuses for an unjust system, and finding ways to make the shitty bargains required for survival that at least minimize the extent to which we support it, is the best sort of start I can suggest. We may be forced by circumstance, especially those of us who have given hostages to fortune, to be complicit. But we can recover some agency at least over th…

>I definitely do understand feeling powerless. But remember also that, as a middle-class white person, especially if you're male and the head of a conventional family household, that puts you pretty close to America's own idea of what America is. Believe it or not, there's a subtle kind of power in that. And if you change white to any other color the power that comes from embodying something people consider good is s…

Who's more respected? The white plumber whose Corvette is seen as the just fruits of diligent labor, or the black engineer whose BMW is regarded as clear evidence of foolish profligacy?

I'd be more inclined to credit what you're saying if I hadn't seen precisely that distinction so often expressed by people who, in contexts not influenced by their perspective on race, uphold pure meritocracy as the highest good, whose primacy is a uniquely American virtue.

And, in any case, people's perceptions aren't as simple as you make them out to be. I think it would be very nice if they were! But to behave in contravention of reality is the best way I know to betray myself into foolishness. Maybe you've had better results with the method.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#174

Post by dx87 »

darth_avocado wrote: post #6

"you're wrong" - Best way to win over someone you disagree with

That ranks right up there with "You do realize that X, right?" It's like, not only am I going to tell you you're wrong, but I'm also going to imply it's because you're too stupid to have put any thought into your opinion.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#175

Post by montagg »

PeterStuer wrote: post #110

The carrot and stick ... it's complicated. Some people will respond better to one or the other. Also, the carrot of 'feeling good about yourself' has many nuances. An anecdote: We used to live in a village that had a few kilometers of semi-rural 2 lane road leading to it. Even though this road was outside city limits, it had many driveways and side streets on it so the speed limit was 50 km/h. At the time we had 2 ca…

Guilt is as much a tool as pride. I think the way Martin Luther King, Jr. frames the goal of direct action in “A Letter from Birmingham Jail”[1] is helpful in understanding the power of internal guilt in changing things:

> You may well ask: "Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn't negotiation a better path?" You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue.

You can then use both the stick (tension that leads to confronting a crisis) to lead people to the carrot (pride for confronting that crisis).

It does depend on the community’s ability to internalize that tension, though. I’m concerned that is much harder than it used to be. I think for many American Republicans in particular that is no longer possible, because they’ve created parallel information streams that scrubs out all of that tension. If that’s true, I don’t actually know what the right tactic is to help them understand the tension that exist in so many issues, or even if there is a plausible tactic.

[1]: https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#176

Post by kingkawn »

cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

Sounds like still a few steps to go

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#177

Post by FascistsAreLame »

cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

Guilt tripping people into not killing is evil? Your thesis doesn’t hold much water.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#178

Post by SamBam »

DFHippie wrote: post #171
cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

Calling guilt tripping manipulation is a little dramatic given that people use the expression to encompass anything that makes them feel guilty whether it's intended to or not. If you drive an efficient car, ride a bike, or walk, some people, varying numbers according to where you are, will be righteously outraged that you're guilt-tripping them. Also, "manipulation" suggests unfair trickery. If you're guilt-tripped…

Indeed. The number of times I've heard that driving an electric car or a bike is "virtue signaling" is amazing.

I think, if you're so focused on the "signaling" -- the notion that someone is just doing that to provoke an emotional response -- then all that's saying to me is that it's provoking guilt in you, and that's made you feel angry.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#179

Post by [deleted] »

bartread wrote: post #153
cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

> Doing it is evil and makes you evil. Whoa: hold on just a second there. I don't necessarily disagree with your wider point but we need to step away from this inflammatory and accusatory language. You said that you used to guilt-trip people constantly when you were younger, and then you stopped when you realised how sick it was. Doing it didn't make you evil: it made you immature, and then you grew out of it. Except…

[deleted]

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#180

Post by civilization_ »

einpoklum wrote: post #166
cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

So, you're arguing against guilt-tripping by guilt-tripping those who guilt-trip? Nice :-)

It was his last guilt trip!
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