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Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

psyche.co

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Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#121

Post by throwaway316943 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #8

"The potential of positive self-directed emotions has largely not been embraced by activists. The worry could be that it might make those engaging in the cause appear self-satisfied or selfish. But these studies suggest that, instead of focusing on ‘doom and gloom’ messaging that zooms in on people’s shortcomings and risks alienating them, policymakers and strategists might find that positive messaging, speaking to p…

> One only needs to look at the behaviour in countries like China or Japan

And I definitely wouldn’t want to live in China and I would be very uncomfortable living in Japan. Singapore really just depends on how much money you have and how easy it is to vacation elsewhere. Aggressive environmental shaming seems to have created a deep divide and shows the exact behaviour warned about in the article where people become defensive and then further entrench their beliefs with some deciding to lean into it and flaunt their “shameful” behaviour in the faces of those trying to shame them. How are these good examples?

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#122

Post by breakfastduck »

guerrilla wrote: post #87
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should you self-flagellate for being born in the situation you are in? How would that benefit anyone? Guilt is a negative emotion, and in my opinion you shouldn't have to do penance for things you have no control over. Instead, you can use your position of privilege to do good in whatever way fits. My small contribution, I run an online community (~1000 members in our Discord server) with a zero tolerance policy on r…

> you have no control over Faulty assumption here. You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

Making people feel guilty doesn't enact positive change. This is not the correct way to approach the situation.

It might make you feel morally better in yourself, but all you're going to do is put white people off even listening to you.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#123

Post by donatj »

jagrsw wrote: post #76
didibus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". Another good one I'm trying recently is: "You're right to think that given the information you know, and here's some more information you should consider." Oh and: "That's a great hypothesis, here's another one."

> I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". How does it work with e.g.? A: 2+2=5 B: Yes and.... I've seen this advice in some local guideline for holding effective meetings, but there are certain scenarios where saying 'yes and' or 'this might be true from your POV, but please consider' feels more like trying to manipulate someone than just trying to figure out something (…

> How does it work with e.g.?

> A: 2+2=5

> B: Yes and....

Pretty cleanly “Yes and minus 1”

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#124

Post by aebtebeten »

jagrsw wrote: post #76
didibus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". Another good one I'm trying recently is: "You're right to think that given the information you know, and here's some more information you should consider." Oh and: "That's a great hypothesis, here's another one."

> I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". How does it work with e.g.? A: 2+2=5 B: Yes and.... I've seen this advice in some local guideline for holding effective meetings, but there are certain scenarios where saying 'yes and' or 'this might be true from your POV, but please consider' feels more like trying to manipulate someone than just trying to figure out something (…

A: 2+2=5

B: Yes, in structural engineering (or rocket science) 2+2=5, and in cosmology 2+2=10, and in computer engineering 2+2=2, and as we're doing arithmetic here, 2+2=4.

https://xkcd.com/2205/

(Is Leo Moracchioli a cosmologist? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O81XldQHApg )

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#125

Post by breakfastduck »

josephg wrote: post #9
Barrin92 wrote: post #8

"The potential of positive self-directed emotions has largely not been embraced by activists. The worry could be that it might make those engaging in the cause appear self-satisfied or selfish. But these studies suggest that, instead of focusing on ‘doom and gloom’ messaging that zooms in on people’s shortcomings and risks alienating them, policymakers and strategists might find that positive messaging, speaking to p…

(This is pop-psych so take it with a grain of salt.) One way it’s been explained to me is that guilt and shame are tools for suppressing action and passion. They’re really good tools to get someone to stop doing something; but terrible tools to get someone to start. To start a new initiative you want to be motivated. But guilt/shame are tools of disengagement . They suppress our capacity for proactive action.

This rings true to me.

You see it, especially with racial issues, that when (mainly white activists) shame other white people for being white (and ergo automatically racist), those being shamed generally retract even further away from potentially engaging with the issues

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#126

Post by throwaway316943 »

kelnos wrote: post #42
Barrin92 wrote: post #8

"The potential of positive self-directed emotions has largely not been embraced by activists. The worry could be that it might make those engaging in the cause appear self-satisfied or selfish. But these studies suggest that, instead of focusing on ‘doom and gloom’ messaging that zooms in on people’s shortcomings and risks alienating them, policymakers and strategists might find that positive messaging, speaking to p…

> I think negative, external reinforcement has a much stronger real-world case. One only needs to look at the behaviour in countries like China or Japan, where guilt and social punishment has been used as a tool for probably thousands of years, with actual results. Singapore's a place that is well known for getting people to do the right thing, I'm not sure they managed to do it with pats on the back. I think negativ…

Side note. Stores really need to fix their approach to reusable grocery bags. People will always forget to bring them and will go with the other option because of convenience. They need to factor that in. Maybe just charge a deposit on the reusable bags and allow people to return them at their leisure for a refund?

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#127

Post by logicchains »

cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

Always be wary of someone who calls you selfish while expecting you to do something for them without giving you anything back in return.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#128

Post by logicchains »

guerrilla wrote: post #87
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should you self-flagellate for being born in the situation you are in? How would that benefit anyone? Guilt is a negative emotion, and in my opinion you shouldn't have to do penance for things you have no control over. Instead, you can use your position of privilege to do good in whatever way fits. My small contribution, I run an online community (~1000 members in our Discord server) with a zero tolerance policy on r…

> you have no control over Faulty assumption here. You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

>You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

An alternative way to look at it: what did western civilisation do to grow such a huge amount of wealth compared to the rest of the world? What could the rest of the world learn from this, so that they could build wealth of their own? Fortunately the answer is relatively simple, as evidenced by how most east Asian countries have now become just as wealthy/developed as western countries: by embracing markets, the rule of law and personal responsibility.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#129

Post by throwaway316943 »

didibus wrote: post #67
darth_avocado wrote: post #6

"you're wrong" - Best way to win over someone you disagree with

I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". Another good one I'm trying recently is: "You're right to think that given the information you know, and here's some more information you should consider." Oh and: "That's a great hypothesis, here's another one."

Those are both pretty condescending. Convincing someone is the same as correcting a math problem, work through the chain of reasoning until you find the error. The problem is you need to establish trust and good will to do this. Building rapport first and agreeing that you will both act in good faith before going through the reasoning. Just saying “you’re right” and “that’s great” are pretty weak attempts and will be seen as patronizing more often than not.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#130

Post by wccrawford »

cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

I had exactly the same realization about the same time. And now I strongly push back against it to this day.

Unfortunately, most people don't even realize they're being manipulated. Whenever I get visibly upset at being manipulated, people question it. Almost inevitably, they don't understand the manipulation and think it's fine.

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