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Colin Powell has died

cnn.com

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Re: Colin Powell has died

#211

Post by sofixa »

betterunix2 wrote: post #189
sofixa wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A crime against peace, in international law, is "planning, preparation, initiation, or waging of wars of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances, or participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the foregoing That's pretty much the definition of crimes against peace.

Where is lying to the UN in that definition?

He lied to the UN as a part of a conspiracy to wage a war of agression which breaks the UN treaty. What more do you want?

Re: Colin Powell has died

#213

Post by smolder »

caeril wrote: post #201
afavour wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m no fan of Colin Powell but IMO the responsibility for those deaths does not fall on him specifically. The US was going to war in Iraq with or without the UN’s backing, everything Powell did was window dressing. False, deceitful and criminal window dressing, but still.

> IMO the responsibility for those deaths does not fall on him specifically. While this is true, you're not allowed to criticize the flawlessly angelic Intelligence Community on HN. Holding up the CIA as a bastion of virtue whilst denouncing the public faces of our war crimes is the best way to maintain your karma here. When Tony Blair passes, be sure to dance on his grave too, because the GCHQ puppetmasters did abso…

I wouldn't hold CIA and other intel agencies up as a bastion of virtue, and I appreciate they've done a lot of terrible things. I can't really make broader moral judgements about how they handle their respective missions, though, since they mostly operate in the dark. All I can say about the CIA, for example, is they're somewhere between A: the most oppressive, lawless, brutal institution to exist post WW2, and B: flawed saviors of humanity from nuclear/other apocalypse. Who really knows? Those that do probably can't say much.

Intel agencies do have the problem that if they go off the rails, there's not many paths to reform outside of direct involvement. I also strongly suspect that they're doing some terrible and unnecessary things to this day (e.g. still ruining lives in a protracted battle with Marx's ghost) and need reform, but that's really the strongest claim I can make.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#214

Post by dragonwriter »

TomSwirly wrote: post #207
dragonwriter wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biden voted for the act which required Bush to make certain determinations, which he did in bad faith. While we can (and I did at the time) argue that the bad faith was predictable, supporting the law is still different than actively perpetrating the bad faith determination to initiate the war.

"I'm going to give the crazy guy the gun, and let him choose whether to kill all these people, and it's not my fault." So tired of this idea that powerful people are free of responsibility for their actions. Biden VOTED FOR THE ACT which everyone knew was bullshit and hundreds of thousands of innocent people died.

> So tired of this idea that powerful people are free of responsibility for their actions

That's irrelevant; distinguishing between distinctly different acts is not absolving either of liability; in fact, I explicitly noted the basis of moral liability for each of the distinguished acts.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#215

Post by specialist »

rdl wrote: post #209
specialist wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What did they know that Colin Powell did not? Rhetorical question? WRT Iraq, it was public knowledge that: a) Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, indeed Iraq and al Qaeda were idealogical opponents. b) Iraq had no "weapons of mass destruction"; cite Hans Blix, others. c) Iraqi leader Hussein had completely capitulated, meaning GWB had effectively won without firing a single shot. d) Bush Admin and their sources were…

> b) Iraq had no "weapons of mass destruction"; cite Hans Blix, others. I think that overstates the case. There was no good proof they did have those weapons, and a lot of stuff was fabricated or blown out of proportion to support their having them, but there was also a lot of reason to suspect they had them (including that we/our allies had supplied them to Saddam the past!...plus prior use against the Kurds and Shi…

If the Bush Admin had found any such weapons, they would have bragged about it.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#216

Post by rajamaka »

uberman wrote: post #202
trasz wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of respect for a war monger responsible for killing million random people? No offence, but this says a lot about your ethics.

With due respect, I feel it is quite disingenuous to characterize Powel as either a warmonger or as being personally responsible for the deaths of a million people. In fact, he is reported to have called the Neocon cabal as 'a bunch of fucking crazies' during the build-up to war in Iraq. If Powell is the one responsible, are you absolving Donald Rumsfeld and more importantly Dick Cheney of responsibility? How about t…

"Do they all get absolved of responsibility because Powell gave a speech at the UN?"

No, obviously not.

"Did he know some of what he said was not sustained by facts, or even that they were lies?"

If he didn't know all the facts perhaps he should have had the moral fortitude to not beat the drums to a war machine that resulted in so many innocent deaths

Re: Colin Powell has died

#217

Post by dragonwriter »

uberman wrote: post #202
trasz wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of respect for a war monger responsible for killing million random people? No offence, but this says a lot about your ethics.

With due respect, I feel it is quite disingenuous to characterize Powel as either a warmonger or as being personally responsible for the deaths of a million people. In fact, he is reported to have called the Neocon cabal as 'a bunch of fucking crazies' during the build-up to war in Iraq. If Powell is the one responsible, are you absolving Donald Rumsfeld and more importantly Dick Cheney of responsibility? How about t…

> If Powell is the one responsible, are you absolving Donald Rumsfeld and more importantly Dick Cheney of responsibility

Nope, responsibility is not exclusive. All of them bear undiluted responsibility for their actions and the deliberate and forseeable consequences. Two people collaborating in a murder aren't each half-murderers, they are both unqualified, unmitigated murderers.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#218

Post by rajamaka »

eric_b wrote: post #113

Some truly wild comments in this thread. The moral self-righteousness of the commenters here is really something to behold. I'm particularly saddened by so many of the obviously partisan comments. From my recollection it was Barack Obama who continued the conflict in Afghanistan and was responsible for scores of extra-judicial assassinations throughout the world. And while many people died in the Afghanistan conflict…

Your argument is that Powell should not be criticised because whataboutism?

Re: Colin Powell has died

#219

Post by rajamaka »

lowkey_ wrote: post #115

This is one of many obituary posts on HN I've seen a ton of hate and accusations on, along with questions like "why does everyone venerate the dead regardless of their acts in life?" Some of us have a different threshold than others for at what point a life is valuable, and the loss of that life tragic. While there can be a time and place for discussions of the 2003 UN performance, calling someone a war criminal, rag…

Genuinely curious whether you would have made the same comment of "if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all" on the post of "Osama Bin Laden has died" in 2011.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#220

Post by hindsightbias »

koheripbal wrote: post #105
_3ddw wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was 17 when we invaded Afghanistan and 19 when we invaded Iraq. Through the lead-up to both of those conflicts I remember watching scores of demonstrators marching outside the White House, chanting slogans against the wars. What did they know that Colin Powell did not?

The invasion of Afghanistan should not be lumped in with Iraq. The first had broad public support in both parties and in the public. ... over 90%. As well as support from NATO, the EU, and many other nations as it was an operation to get Osama Bin Laden after 9/11. The invasion of Iraq was far more controversial and motivated by oil politics. They are completely different animals.

That’s a bit of reimagining. Iraq was widely supported

https://news.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-america...

72% would be a blow out in any election.

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