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Colin Powell has died

cnn.com

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Re: Colin Powell has died

#201

Post by caeril »

afavour wrote: post #13
hawk_ wrote: post #8

I won't understand respect for someone who was reponsible for the deaths of 100s of thousands of people because he lied.

I’m no fan of Colin Powell but IMO the responsibility for those deaths does not fall on him specifically. The US was going to war in Iraq with or without the UN’s backing, everything Powell did was window dressing. False, deceitful and criminal window dressing, but still.

> IMO the responsibility for those deaths does not fall on him specifically.

While this is true, you're not allowed to criticize the flawlessly angelic Intelligence Community on HN.

Holding up the CIA as a bastion of virtue whilst denouncing the public faces of our war crimes is the best way to maintain your karma here. When Tony Blair passes, be sure to dance on his grave too, because the GCHQ puppetmasters did absolutely nothing wrong.

It's always best for one's personal reputation to shoot the messenger, not the man behind the curtain.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#202

Post by uberman »

trasz wrote: post #200
betterunix2 wrote: post #4

RIP. This is very sad news. I personally disagreed with many of his actions, especially the Iraq/WMD story, but even so I had a lot of respect for him.

A lot of respect for a war monger responsible for killing million random people? No offence, but this says a lot about your ethics.

With due respect, I feel it is quite disingenuous to characterize Powel as either a warmonger or as being personally responsible for the deaths of a million people. In fact, he is reported to have called the Neocon cabal as 'a bunch of fucking crazies' during the build-up to war in Iraq.

If Powell is the one responsible, are you absolving Donald Rumsfeld and more importantly Dick Cheney of responsibility? How about the join houses of congress and the US press. Do they all get absolved of responsibility because Powell gave a speech at the UN?

The US was going to war and though he did not like it, Powell was tasked with speaking to the UN about it. Did he know some of what he said was not sustained by facts, or even that they were lies? Sure and he regretted it the rest of his days.

The important point is, Powell at the UN or not, the US was going to war. Laying all the deaths on him is completely scapegoating a fine man and thus excusing the true Neocon powerbrokers who are ultimately responsible.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#203

Post by bradlys »

emptyfile wrote: post #94

A million dead civilians. All that blood is on America as a whole, but this guy's hands are as bloody as they can be. Reading these comments it seems America has forgiven him... I assure you the rest of the world won't forget...

> Reading these comments it seems America has forgiven him... I assure you the rest of the world won't forget...

People working the “defense industry” (you know - making weapons to kill millions of innocent civilians) are just showing up in this thread a lot. This guy is the reason they have their jobs. Colin Powell is a piece of shit to anyone who doesn’t work in that sector. Dude straight up lied and got entire states worth of people murdered all for his own vanity.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#204

Post by bradlys »

caeril wrote: post #201
afavour wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m no fan of Colin Powell but IMO the responsibility for those deaths does not fall on him specifically. The US was going to war in Iraq with or without the UN’s backing, everything Powell did was window dressing. False, deceitful and criminal window dressing, but still.

> IMO the responsibility for those deaths does not fall on him specifically. While this is true, you're not allowed to criticize the flawlessly angelic Intelligence Community on HN. Holding up the CIA as a bastion of virtue whilst denouncing the public faces of our war crimes is the best way to maintain your karma here. When Tony Blair passes, be sure to dance on his grave too, because the GCHQ puppetmasters did abso…

> Holding up the CIA as a bastion of virtue whilst denouncing the public faces of our war crimes is the best way to maintain your karma here.

You’re joking, right? The CIA is shit on all the time. It’s a fucking joke just like most other state run agencies that are all self-interested and don’t actually look out for the public good.

The CIA is responsible for huge amounts of horrible shit across the entire world. Constantly instilling puppet dictators and destabilizing countries for generations now - all for the glory of US capitalism and imperialism.

Doesn’t mean Colin Powell is absolved either. Everyone involved is to blame. Even the voters.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#205

Post by merpnderp »

h2odragon wrote: post #156
merpnderp wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they disagree with any arguments, or just wishful thinking? My Lai and the UN are just the most glaring examples of him putting his career before everything else. I still don't understand how a person who tried to cover up (in the most laughably inept manner) the massacre of civilians by the US Army didn't spend the rest of his life as a pariah, let alone get positive press in the media for decades. Then add in hi…

I have had discussion with people who I must credit with being sincere, who believed Mr Powell was a true American Hero whose accomplishments and achievements should be lauded and emulated. I didn't agree with or understand their arguments well enough to try repeating them. I think those arguing that way were praising a faithful servant to any master, with no morals or principle of his own. as if thats a good thing t…

The court cases allowing many of of the Vietnamese atrocities to go unpunished allowed people to claim they were "just following orders." You might not be wrong...

Re: Colin Powell has died

#206

Post by iSnow »

betterunix2 wrote: post #129
iSnow wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's a stretch and I don't want to Godwin the discussion too much, but that is really not an excuse. The Nuremberg trials clearly rejected this "Nuremberg defense", but of course it was the beaten party standing before the court back then. But in principle, since 1945, no one can evade personal responsibility for a clearly unlawful act by pointing to superior orders.

"They did it too" was an acceptable defense at Nuremberg; Donitz was not sentenced for the specific crime of unrestricted submarine warfare because the Allies had done the same thing (the US in the Pacific). Iraq also lied to the UN many times. Really though, this is a stupid comparison. People generally remember the Nuremberg trials in the context of the Holocaust -- genocide, slave labor, and all the horror that ac…

No, Dönitz got away with his unrestricted sub warfare order because the allied powers committed a war crime and hushed it up:

> Operating partly under the dictates of the old prize rules, the U-boat commander, Korvettenkapitän Werner Hartenstein, immediately commenced rescue operations. U-156 broadcast her position on open radio channels to all Allied powers nearby, and were joined by the crews of several other U-boats in the vicinity.

>[...] En route, the U-boat was spotted by a B-24 Liberator bomber of the US Army Air Forces. The aircrew, having reported the U-boat's location, intentions and the presence of survivors, were then ordered to attack the sub.

>[...] The commanders of the Kriegsmarine were quickly issued the Laconia Order by Grand Admiral Karl Dönitz, which specifically forbade any such attempt and ushered in unrestricted submarine warfare for the remainder of the war.

>[...] During the later Nuremberg trials, a prosecutor attempted to cite the Laconia Order as proof of war crimes by Dönitz and his submariners. The ploy backfired and caused much embarrassment to the United States after the incident's full report had emerged.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident

It's also specifically not about genocide vs non-genocide but about legal vs. illegal orders. Just because you represent the US of A you cannot lie to the whole world to start a war. I mean, you can as evidenced by Powell, but a lot of people will spit on your grave for that.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#207

Post by TomSwirly »

dragonwriter wrote: post #176
tarsinge wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insightful comment. Regarding: > Many pointed out the advocates for invading Iraq, mostly the neo-cons Don’t forget Biden who ultimately co signed the act.

Biden voted for the act which required Bush to make certain determinations, which he did in bad faith. While we can (and I did at the time) argue that the bad faith was predictable, supporting the law is still different than actively perpetrating the bad faith determination to initiate the war.

"I'm going to give the crazy guy the gun, and let him choose whether to kill all these people, and it's not my fault."

So tired of this idea that powerful people are free of responsibility for their actions. Biden VOTED FOR THE ACT which everyone knew was bullshit and hundreds of thousands of innocent people died.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#208

Post by TomSwirly »

koheripbal wrote: post #105
_3ddw wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was 17 when we invaded Afghanistan and 19 when we invaded Iraq. Through the lead-up to both of those conflicts I remember watching scores of demonstrators marching outside the White House, chanting slogans against the wars. What did they know that Colin Powell did not?

The invasion of Afghanistan should not be lumped in with Iraq. The first had broad public support in both parties and in the public. ... over 90%. As well as support from NATO, the EU, and many other nations as it was an operation to get Osama Bin Laden after 9/11. The invasion of Iraq was far more controversial and motivated by oil politics. They are completely different animals.

> As well as support from NATO, the EU, and many other nations as it was an operation to get Osama Bin Laden after 9/11.

False: Afghanistan offered twice to give up Bin Laden, and Bush refused even to negotiate with them: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.te...

The Afghan War allowed Bin Laden to escape to Pakistan and live for over a decade in safety and comfort.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#209

Post by rdl »

specialist wrote: post #150
_3ddw wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was 17 when we invaded Afghanistan and 19 when we invaded Iraq. Through the lead-up to both of those conflicts I remember watching scores of demonstrators marching outside the White House, chanting slogans against the wars. What did they know that Colin Powell did not?

> What did they know that Colin Powell did not? Rhetorical question? WRT Iraq, it was public knowledge that: a) Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, indeed Iraq and al Qaeda were idealogical opponents. b) Iraq had no "weapons of mass destruction"; cite Hans Blix, others. c) Iraqi leader Hussein had completely capitulated, meaning GWB had effectively won without firing a single shot. d) Bush Admin and their sources were…

> b) Iraq had no "weapons of mass destruction"; cite Hans Blix, others.

I think that overstates the case. There was no good proof they did have those weapons, and a lot of stuff was fabricated or blown out of proportion to support their having them, but there was also a lot of reason to suspect they had them (including that we/our allies had supplied them to Saddam the past!...plus prior use against the Kurds and Shia). I think the consensus opinion now is that Saddam was trying to make others (especially within Iraq) believe he had a viable WMD capability, but that he didn't have an active program at the time of invasion.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#210

Post by sofixa »

jl6 wrote: post #191
sofixa wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting Wikipedia: > Powell's chief role was to garner international support for a multi-national coalition to mount the invasion. To this end, Powell addressed a plenary session of the United Nations Security Council on February 5, 2003, to argue in favor of military action. Citing numerous anonymous Iraqi defectors, Powell asserted that "there can be no doubt that Saddam Hussein has biological weapons and the capab…

It should be really easy to find some examples of people attempting to put him on trial, given such a slam dunk case.

Please name one american war criminal higher than a soldier killing innocents in the dozens ( like someone who ordered a war or a strike or torture or kidnapping or whatever) who was actually tried and served time for his crimes. That just doesn't happen with US war criminals, so the question is moot.
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