Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Colin Powell has died

cnn.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 236 posts

Re: Colin Powell has died

#141

Post by dkarl »

_3ddw wrote: post #63
CapricornNoble wrote: post #24

Colin Powell is a textbook case of "A thousand 'Atta-boys!' and one fuck-up!". He joined the Army in the 1950s, served through 2 tours in Vietnam, and made it all the way to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs by the end of the 1980s, leading the military through Operation Desert Storm and the post-Soviet era. That's a rare career for ANY American, let alone a black one. But all that went "poof!" after his shameful performa…

I was 17 when we invaded Afghanistan and 19 when we invaded Iraq. Through the lead-up to both of those conflicts I remember watching scores of demonstrators marching outside the White House, chanting slogans against the wars. What did they know that Colin Powell did not?

You would have been 7 when Desert Storm happened, then. Desert Storm is an episode that will probably be classified as a historical anomaly in hindsight, but in 2001, it was our most recent large-scale military action. Desert Storm was limited, focused, and... wait for the 1990s SNL joke you might be too young to remember... "prudent." Whether it was a good idea or not, whether it accomplished anything positive or not, it seemed to prove we had learned the lessons of Vietnam.

I think that affected everyone's expectations about the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. I was cynical about our motivations and our ability to accomplish anything with the invasions in 2001 and 2003, and was opposed to anything more than punitive action against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, but still I did not foresee the scope of what happened. I thought there was no way an American administration could get suckered into the same kind of conflict, led on by the same chronic overpromising from generals. They would know that the generals would never tell the truth about what they could accomplish by military means. They would know a majority of the society would be bitterly polarized against us as foreign invaders. They would know the inherent difficulty of what they were trying to do. They would know they weren't being told the truth about the situation on the ground. They wouldn't make the mistake of accepting unrealistic definitions of victory.

That's probably what Colin Powell was counting on. Instead, we made all the same mistakes over again, and looking back we see the continuity of Vietnam and Afghanistan, with the Gulf War just an anomalous blip in between.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#142

Post by OneTimePetes »

lowkey_ wrote: post #115

This is one of many obituary posts on HN I've seen a ton of hate and accusations on, along with questions like "why does everyone venerate the dead regardless of their acts in life?" Some of us have a different threshold than others for at what point a life is valuable, and the loss of that life tragic. While there can be a time and place for discussions of the 2003 UN performance, calling someone a war criminal, rag…

I hope you write the same sentences below every collateral victim, declared a terrorist post-cluster-bomb, to justify the means.

To demand decency for the indecent, while not giving the very same to others, that is to declare humans distinct, almost as if one becomes a "real" human only once he joined my tribe. That sentiment has lead to several catastrophes in the past and is banned here.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#143

Post by jtdev »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #75
jtdev wrote: post #2

[flagged]

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7018e1.htm?s_cid=mm... In a multistate network of U.S. hospitals during January–March 2021, receipt of Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna COVID-19 vaccines was 94% effective against COVID-19 hospitalization among fully vaccinated adults and 64% effective among partially vaccinated adults aged ≥65 years.

I don’t believe any-fucking-thing the CDC is saying rn about C19.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#144

Post by _3ddw »

koheripbal wrote: post #105
_3ddw wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was 17 when we invaded Afghanistan and 19 when we invaded Iraq. Through the lead-up to both of those conflicts I remember watching scores of demonstrators marching outside the White House, chanting slogans against the wars. What did they know that Colin Powell did not?

The invasion of Afghanistan should not be lumped in with Iraq. The first had broad public support in both parties and in the public. ... over 90%. As well as support from NATO, the EU, and many other nations as it was an operation to get Osama Bin Laden after 9/11. The invasion of Iraq was far more controversial and motivated by oil politics. They are completely different animals.

> The invasion of Afghanistan should not be lumped in with Iraq.

> The first had broad public support in both parties and in the public. ... over 90%

Certainly. But that is exactly what leaders are for: Good leaders worth mourning transform knowledge and sage wisdom into actions that should sometimes run counter to popular public will, and do not always bow under public pressure. Good leaders guide their people away from tragic error, at times when popular opinion would lead the population into the abyss, like it did in 2001.

If your conception of leadership is people who at all times merely execute the public will, then what you have are actually automata. Why bother with human leaders at all, then? We could just automate government to follow public opinion based on mass polling.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#145

Post by OneTimePetes »

uberman wrote: post #78

I see many people here hating on Colin Powell and perhaps there is cause for that. In my opinion though, I will remember him an uncommonly principled man. Did he have party loyalties? Sure. Did they sometimes conflict with his personal views? Sure. I'll admit that there were some disappointments. However, his ultimate ability to break with powerful past loyalties that conflicted with his personal views and to speak p…

What good is frail old man, coming out of the fog of war too late and muttering partial regrets? Does it revive the dead? Rebuild the cities? Heal any wounds or wash toxins from the jungle? The words of the living past to the present are as worthless as the symbolic actions of the left against past injustices, while ignoring the present ones.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#146

Post by sofixa »

betterunix2 wrote: post #66
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A complete lie which he was fully aware of. > At one point, he became so angry at the lack of adequate sourcing to intelligence claims that he declared: "I'm not reading this. This is bullshit," according to the magazine. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jun/02/usa.iraq He did read it in full, of course. And he brought the fake vial of Iraqi anthrax to the presentation, too. A known unknown of known bullshit, I…

Is that really the standard for calling someone a war criminal? National leaders always lie about the reasons for war, whether they are the attackers or the defenders. No doubt that Colin Powell did the wrong thing when he lied to the UN, but let's not throw around the term "war criminal" to mean "someone who did the wrong thing."

And that' a war crime, specifically "crime against peace". A really cut and dry case of war criminal. Too bad he didn't face trial and spend any time in prison.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#147

Post by bhouston »

1cvmask wrote: post #108
bhouston wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was against the Iraq war as well. It was clearly based on lies. It also lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis. What surprised me and I noticed then when Donald Rumsfeld died. Both Iraqi and Afghanistan have nearly doubled their populations since 2001: https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/iraq-populati... https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/afghanistan-p... I wonder if t…

Maybe you produce more children when you expect to lose some of them to bombings.

I think you are right here.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#148

Post by secondcoming »

_3ddw wrote: post #63
CapricornNoble wrote: post #24

Colin Powell is a textbook case of "A thousand 'Atta-boys!' and one fuck-up!". He joined the Army in the 1950s, served through 2 tours in Vietnam, and made it all the way to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs by the end of the 1980s, leading the military through Operation Desert Storm and the post-Soviet era. That's a rare career for ANY American, let alone a black one. But all that went "poof!" after his shameful performa…

I was 17 when we invaded Afghanistan and 19 when we invaded Iraq. Through the lead-up to both of those conflicts I remember watching scores of demonstrators marching outside the White House, chanting slogans against the wars. What did they know that Colin Powell did not?

UN inspectors had been in Iraq for years looking for signs of WMDs or their development. They never found them [0], so the US got rid of the inspectors and used fabricated 'evidence' from an Iraqi defector as proof of WMDs.

[0] https://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/03/18_blix...

Re: Colin Powell has died

#149

Post by sofixa »

betterunix2 wrote: post #139
marricks wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His lies at the time legitimized a war where hundreds of thousands of people died.

That is not a war crime. Keep in mind that the Allies lied about all kinds of things during WWII in order to legitimize our involvement, and that we killed millions of people during the war. Countries always lie about war and people always die in war, those are just facts.

Yes, the Allies comitted war crimes in WWII, i don't see how that matters for modern war criminals. Conspiracy against peace is a real war crime, including in the US.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#150

Post by specialist »

_3ddw wrote: post #63
CapricornNoble wrote: post #24

Colin Powell is a textbook case of "A thousand 'Atta-boys!' and one fuck-up!". He joined the Army in the 1950s, served through 2 tours in Vietnam, and made it all the way to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs by the end of the 1980s, leading the military through Operation Desert Storm and the post-Soviet era. That's a rare career for ANY American, let alone a black one. But all that went "poof!" after his shameful performa…

I was 17 when we invaded Afghanistan and 19 when we invaded Iraq. Through the lead-up to both of those conflicts I remember watching scores of demonstrators marching outside the White House, chanting slogans against the wars. What did they know that Colin Powell did not?

> What did they know that Colin Powell did not?

Rhetorical question?

WRT Iraq, it was public knowledge that:

a) Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, indeed Iraq and al Qaeda were idealogical opponents.

b) Iraq had no "weapons of mass destruction"; cite Hans Blix, others.

c) Iraqi leader Hussein had completely capitulated, meaning GWB had effectively won without firing a single shot.

d) Bush Admin and their sources were lying and didn't care that every one knew they were lying.

WRT Afghanistan, I don't readily recall what intelligence failures were publicly known at the time. Complicity of Pakistan's ISI. Allowing bin Laden to escape. The tar pit of dealing with Taliban, the misc war lords of the Northern Alliance.

Many objected to Bush Admin's focus on Iraq at the expense of the Afghanistan effort.

Many more objected to Bush Admin's violation of the Powell Doctrine, in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

Many pointed out the advocates for invading Iraq, mostly the neo-cons (aka chickenhawks), simply wanted war, regime change, and so forth. They'd said as much for over a decade. They seized the crisis of 9/11 to enact their plans. It was all very audacious and unapologetic.

Post reply on HN