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Colin Powell has died

cnn.com

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Re: Colin Powell has died

#41

Post by rdl »

asteroidbelt wrote: post #21
hawk_ wrote: post #8

I won't understand respect for someone who was reponsible for the deaths of 100s of thousands of people because he lied.

If you are talking about Iraq, these people were not exactly living happy lives under Saddam rule. Colin lie is inexcusable, but Iraq war was a good thing for Iraq. Net zero at least. (Feel free to downvote, downvote is used for disagreement on HN these days.)

I spent 6 years there, including some time "on the economy".

Iran-Iraq War and Post-Gulf War 1 sanctions were each worse for Iraq than the 2003 invasion (by far). The various problems with the occupation (which mostly fall on Bremer/CPA and GWB/Cheney) were probably within an order of magnitude of Iran-Iraq and sanctions, maybe even directly comparable. Rise of ISIS (also a separate thing) and general sectarian violence as also bad at that level.

It's hard to tell how far back the causality chain you should go. A simple "kill Saddam, put any reasonable other person in, don't extensively reconstruct the government, GTFO" was what I was assuming would happen in 2003, which probably would have been net-positive for Iraqis. If you are bundling "invasion in 2003" with CPA + sectarianism + ISIS, then they're collectively highly net-negative for Iraqis, but I don't think they were necessarily linked in 2003.

I still would have opposed it as a US person (because it was a distraction from Afghanistan, which ALSO should have been concluded in late 2001 vs turned into a 20 year quagmire...)

Colin Powell has a decent place in my memory for his work in the 1990s and before, but he definitely spent his reputational capital in lying to UN, even if it didn't ultimately influence the course of action. I could certainly agree with him perhaps even overdrawing that account in total.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#42

Post by disneygibson »

asteroidbelt wrote: post #21
hawk_ wrote: post #8

I won't understand respect for someone who was reponsible for the deaths of 100s of thousands of people because he lied.

If you are talking about Iraq, these people were not exactly living happy lives under Saddam rule. Colin lie is inexcusable, but Iraq war was a good thing for Iraq. Net zero at least. (Feel free to downvote, downvote is used for disagreement on HN these days.)

The estimates vary, but between half a million and a million people have died from the war and its aftermath. Not including Syrian Civil War or Libya, which were absolutely consequences of destabilizing the region.

No matter how bad Saddam was, invading was a bad solution.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#43

Post by bluedevil2k »

mkr-hn wrote: post #26
bluedevil2k wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he didn't deliver that speech, they would have found someone else to do it (and he would have been fired). The responsibility lies with Bush and Cheney, not with the messenger.

That argument didn't fly for people at a similar level of authority at Nuremberg.

Not even remotely the same situation. Nuremberg was about officers delivering and obeying direct orders to kill civilians and commit war crimes. Powell simply delivered a speech to get international support for a war the US was going to fight no matter what. He had nothing to do with the war crimes.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#44

Post by jes »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #18
hawk_ wrote: post #8

I won't understand respect for someone who was reponsible for the deaths of 100s of thousands of people because he lied.

If he didn't deliver that speech, they would have found someone else to do it (and he would have been fired). The responsibility lies with Bush and Cheney, not with the messenger.

I am reminded of the “To Be or To Do” [1] story about the late Colonel John Boyd.

Powell had a hard choice, yet life often puts us in such situations. He should have resigned, in my view. If he did not, he shares in the responsibility for what was done.

[1] https://dnipogo.org/john-r-boyd/to-be-or-to-do/

Re: Colin Powell has died

#45

Post by h2odragon »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #36
CapricornNoble wrote: post #24

Colin Powell is a textbook case of "A thousand 'Atta-boys!' and one fuck-up!". He joined the Army in the 1950s, served through 2 tours in Vietnam, and made it all the way to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs by the end of the 1980s, leading the military through Operation Desert Storm and the post-Soviet era. That's a rare career for ANY American, let alone a black one. But all that went "poof!" after his shameful performa…

I don't really see rising through the ranks of the U.S. military through the 70s/80s/90s as particularly praiseworthy either. Powell did the job he did at the UN because he was a company man and had been for a long time. And in addition to a few tut-tuts and a black mark on his record, it also kept him in the good graces of the Washington foreign policy blob, with all the sinecures, speaking fees, magazine profiles,…

Many disagree.

As to "company man" ... Watch "Mars Attacks!" for the best portrayal of Colin Powell to hit the big screen.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#48

Post by pmarreck »

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #16
disneygibson wrote: post #11

Imagine if he had resigned in protest at the decision to push for the invasion of Iraq. He would now be hailed as a hero around the world. Instead, he didn’t. What a waste of an exceptional career.

No one who was against the Iraq War from the onset is doing particularly well. When was the last time you heard anything from Phil Donahue?

Isn't "argumentum ad populum" a fallacy?

Re: Colin Powell has died

#49

Post by LennyWhiteJr »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #43
mkr-hn wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument didn't fly for people at a similar level of authority at Nuremberg.

Not even remotely the same situation. Nuremberg was about officers delivering and obeying direct orders to kill civilians and commit war crimes. Powell simply delivered a speech to get international support for a war the US was going to fight no matter what. He had nothing to do with the war crimes.

cope

Re: Colin Powell has died

#50

Post by galuggus »

LurkingPenguin wrote: post #38
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #22

13 Rules of Leadership First printed in the August 13, 1989, issue of Parade magazine,[41] these are Colin Powell's 13 Rules of Leadership.[42][43] It ain't as bad as you think. Get mad, then get over it. Avoid having your ego so close to your position that when your position falls, your ego goes with it. It can be done. Be careful what you choose. You may get it. Don't let adverse facts stand in the way of a good de…

> It ain't as bad as you think. It was for the people in Afghanistan and Iraq. > Don't let adverse facts stand in the way of a good decision. That one certainly didn't age well.

See also- You can't make someone else's choices. (except who their president is)
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