The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills • Hacker News Board

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#181

Post by vijayr » Wed, May 13, 2015, 12:51 PM UTC

_pmf_ wrote: post #113

roel_v wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"sometimes I think that a 40/60 ratio of men to women would be favorable..." Without wanting to turn this into a race thing, there are sociological circumstances which sort of give us a glimpse (in subsets of the population) of what that could look like - and it's not pretty... See e.g. http://www.economist.com/node/21532296 , which is one of the lesser emotionally charged discussions of it, but I'm sure you can find…

China's and India's fad of aborting female offspring is not really very helpful. They're setting themselves up for some really, really nasty future.

Not sure about India, but China is already in trouble

http://www.forbes.com/sites/china/2011/05/13/chinas-growing-...

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#182

Post by parennoob » Wed, May 13, 2015, 12:52 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #168

parennoob wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs. What is vaguely frustrating about that? The thesis of many commentators seems to be, "Of course men are going to commit suicide. Society often acts in ways strongly unfavorable towards them.", which may possibly not align with your views. I see no reason for bundling them with the "MRA" label/slur. I think it is already acceptable for men to seek hel…

> see no reason for bundling them with the "MRA" label/slur There's a difference between saying "here's a bunch of stuff that makes it harder for men" (not MRAs) and saying "women did it" (MRAs). There are a weird number of posts here unequivocally saying "the women did it". That view isn't supported by the statistics which show higher rates of completed suicide by men for many many years, since before feminist movem…

> There are a weird number of posts here unequivocally saying "the women did it".

I don't see any posts saying that women are responsible for the current condition of men; only ones saying that they are, in some ways, far more privileged in terms of being treated favorably in the average case. Please feel free to link or quote any posts that say "It's specifically only the female part of society that is responsible for this." I am pretty sure they won't be anywhere near the top.

If you asked me, I would say that it is mainly large corporations, political parties, and some educational institutions that cheerlead femininity and demonize masculinity in the hope of getting more votes/sales/students. These can have both male and female components.

> We think that getting men having simple conversations about their mental health will make it easier for them to seek help when they need it.

This is correct. However, you are talking about addressing the symptom, and the so-called MRAs about addressing the cause. You are saying "it is essential to get quinine to malaria victims", and they are saying "there are a lot of disease vectors here, how can we stop them?". It is not at all clear that one view is more valid than the other.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#183

Post by Loughla » Wed, May 13, 2015, 12:53 PM UTC

sukilot wrote: post #73

alextgordon wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody's brain is wired differently (and infused with a different cocktail of chemicals). For me, controlling my emotions brings a sense of inner calm -- happiness. There is nothing better than thinking with a clear head, without being dogged by feelings of anger, anxiety, jealousy, fear or sadness.

Often happiness, thrill, arousal is better than thinking with a clear head.

The issue is that 'Better' is a subjective term.

I don't enjoy wild swings of emotion and the loss of control that often accompanies; so level-headed and clear thinking are better for me.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#184

Post by contergan » Wed, May 13, 2015, 12:54 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #160

smorrow wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> female teacher in California who had sex with her 14-year old male student gets only two years in prison Having sex with someone without their consent is rape, but that doesn't automatically mean it's a bad thing. A woman raping, in terms of actual consequences, isn't the same thing as a man raping. If a woman "raped" me, didn't get pregnant by it, didn't give me any skanky diseases, and didn't publicly accuse me o…

> I'd probably enjoy it. That's not how child abuse works.

And fucking teenagers is not child abuse. They are not children, but almost fully developed sexual beings.

Neither man nor woman should go to prison for years on end because they banged a teenager.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#185

Post by Nursie » Wed, May 13, 2015, 12:57 PM UTC

vijayr wrote: post #179

Nursie wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Feminism is cool whereas MRA is not The extreme voices of feminism are pretty awful, but AFAICT the entire MRA movement is made up of arseholes. It doesn't have to be, and there are issues to be addressed. It's just a shame it seems to be addressed by misogynist dickholes.

There are some topics that are impossible to discuss even for 5 minutes, before it turns ugly with labels, name calling etc. Gender topics top that list (others include religion, political affiliation, eating meat etc). May be what you are saying is true, still it would be nice to refrain from name calling etc, right? Not that it bothers me personally, it just diverts the conversation from the actual issue. In the en…

>> May be what you are saying is true, still it would be nice to refrain from name calling etc, right?

It's just language....

To put it another way - it's easy to see that a mens rights movement could exist that actually pushes for mens rights. All we seem to have now is a group of reactionaries that like to rant about the evils of women and feminism, and espouse some (IMHO) horrific views about women and their place in the world. They also see mens rights as a fight against feminism in a sort of tug-of-war where no fight needs to exists - gender roles and inequalities could be fought together.

I think calling them misogynist dickholes just about covered it though, because that is the way they generally come across.

I have no problem with the "actual issue" of discussing ways in which men are treated unfairly by society. I have a huge problem with the people who have taken it upon themselves to stand up and be called "mens rights activists" and then proceed to rail against women's rights and women's rights activists as if they are the enemy.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#186

Post by ebfe » Wed, May 13, 2015, 12:57 PM UTC

louhike wrote: post #178

mreiland wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a society, we need to come to terms with masculinity. That means men need to be able to be masculine without being domineering and without being castigated. You're doing the exact same thing you're complaining about. This is a social problem towards men, it is not a mans problem they need to solve for themselves. The issue has nothing to do with masculinity and everything to do with the current crop of overly lo…

They did not win, they just managed to be listened to. Women still have more difficulties than men. And telling that is not saying that men do not have problems.

That's actually not true.

Compared to men, women:

* Live longer

* Are less likely to kill themselves

* Are less likely to be the victim of violence

* Are better protected under the law if they are victimized

* Are less likely to be homeless (and receive more support if they are)

* Receive shorter sentences for the same crimes

* Are less likely to be victims of police brutality (the disparity between men and women is actually greater than the disparity between blacks and whites!)

* Are protected under the law from genital mutilation

* Have reproductive rights

* Are more likely to go to college

* When applying for academic positions, are twice as likely to be selected over equally qualified men

* Are the majority of the electorate

* Receive preferential treatment in civil court

* The youngest generations now out-earns their male peers

* Are provided government loans, tax breaks, and contracts unavailable to men

* Are given better grades in school for the same answers

* Own the majority of wealth in the United States

Everything else being equal, men face far greater issues than their female peers.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#187

Post by DanBC » Wed, May 13, 2015, 12:58 PM UTC

contergan wrote: post #184

DanBC wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd probably enjoy it. That's not how child abuse works.

And fucking teenagers is not child abuse. They are not children, but almost fully developed sexual beings. Neither man nor woman should go to prison for years on end because they banged a teenager.

Why do you think I recommend prison? I don't. I advocate a change in society so that people with destructive paraphilias can get support to live with those paraphilias without raping children -- and yes, teenagers are children. That's why we don't let them fight wars or run for office or do a bunch of other stuff.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#188

Post by forgottenpass » Wed, May 13, 2015, 1:01 PM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #110

forgottenpass wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea men should express themselves combined with the limits on socially acceptable expression have always been a strong indicator to me that "men showing emotion" isn't about men showing emotion. The social limits on expression aren't even based on a laughably bad interpretation of "heathy" expression. It straight up means to continue conforming like you always have, but additionally cry and show emotional weakne…

And you expected different? Social life is a game of shared expectations and showing you understand when to lie and not to, how to act by the rules for children and when to break them. Most moral discussion is posturing, just as most social discussion is an attempt to score political points.

And you expected different?

Nope, just agreeing with angersock without wearing my misanthropy on my sleeve.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#189

Post by DanBC » Wed, May 13, 2015, 1:07 PM UTC

parennoob wrote: post #158

smorrow wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> female teacher in California who had sex with her 14-year old male student gets only two years in prison Having sex with someone without their consent is rape, but that doesn't automatically mean it's a bad thing. A woman raping, in terms of actual consequences, isn't the same thing as a man raping. If a woman "raped" me, didn't get pregnant by it, didn't give me any skanky diseases, and didn't publicly accuse me o…

The law doesn't care what you think. Calling it rape when a male student does it, but not when a female teacher does it is definitely evidence of bias in reporting.

There is a bias there. The reporting is often disgusting - "hot teachers fuck their students".

A small part of the problem is that rape is defined as penetration by a penis. See for example the UK sexual offence act which jas several very serious criminal offences that carry the same penalty.

Rape: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/1

Assault by Penetration: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/2

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#190

Post by geebee » Wed, May 13, 2015, 1:08 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #6

The article begins with what appears to be a misstatement of fact. China is an unusual country where the female suicide rate has been higher than the male rate for a long time.

I wasn't aware of this.

I had read the overview page on wikipedia, where the numbers aren't broken down by men and women for China

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_ra...

instead, they provide a link here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_China

It's a bit of a shame, because I had scanned the first page in the past and the higher female to male ratio would have jumped out at me since it's unusual. I'm not suggesting in any way that there's any deliberate suppression of info here, the reason the male/female numbers for China aren't printed in the summary is because reporting is controversial (official govt numbers are at odds with other independent studies), and so is complicated enough to warrant its own page.

It is worth a look, with some interesting implications.