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The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

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Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#151

Post by Nursie »

Ntrails wrote: post #149
Nursie wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a HUGE difference between "don't sweat the small stuff" and "keep your feelings to yourself". All of those things you mention are of the former, not the latter category. One can be stoic and unconcerned with the problems the world throws at you but still connect to people on an emotional level. This is something older generations of my extended family absolutely failed at, due mostly to old-fashioned englishn…

It's OK to be a tough man who can take it on the chin, and also to admit you love your friends and family. Stoicism has nothing to do with being unable to express love/affection?

I'm not up on the finer points of stoicism as its defined in a dictionary or as a philosophical movement but ... I guess that's what I'm trying to get across, yup!

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#152

Post by toyg »

Nursie wrote: post #133
toyg wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But part of the problem is that nobody would address radical feminists as "misandrist cuntholes", right? Doing so would automatically disqualify your credibility. But for men, it's fine, they are really dickholes, right? That's cultural hegemony at work, folks.

>> nobody would address radical feminists as "misandrist cuntholes" People frequently do! The difference is that they don't make up the whole of that movement.

>People frequently do!

Do they?

HackerNews search results:

* "Misandry": 2

* "Misandrist": 0

* "Misogyny": 59

* "Misogynist": 23

Most people will have to look up "the opposite of misogyny" to find "misandry", and that's telling in itself. I do understand why this happens (misogyny has always been a culturally-recognized problem with real repercussions, the opposite not so much), but it still happens and it does unbalance the cultural perception of things.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#153

Post by exo762 »

Nursie wrote: post #133
toyg wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But part of the problem is that nobody would address radical feminists as "misandrist cuntholes", right? Doing so would automatically disqualify your credibility. But for men, it's fine, they are really dickholes, right? That's cultural hegemony at work, folks.

>> nobody would address radical feminists as "misandrist cuntholes" People frequently do! The difference is that they don't make up the whole of that movement.

>> The difference is that they don't make up the whole of that movement.

I'm pretty sure that this statement makes you a misandrist. FYI, MRM does not include actually PUA and MGTOW. Different goals.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#154

Post by DanBC »

Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs.

Suicide is complex. Suicide is common - it's a leading cause of death for some men.

We need to make it acceptable for men to seek help when they are suicidal.

This does not mean that we need men to talk and talk and talk about their intimate feelings. But we do need to make it so men can say "I'm not having a good day" and have someone else say "is it the kind of thing you want to talk to me about? Or is it the kind of thing you might want to talk to a doctor about?"

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#155

Post by bakhy »

mattlutze wrote: post #144
bakhy wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It forces the assertion that "if not for patriarchy, these prejudices wouldn't exist." Implications cannot be automatically reversed, as anyone visiting this site should know ;) I.e. "Patriarchy => prejudice X" does not automatically imply "!Patriarchy => !prejudice X". As for your explanation on patriarchy, it is simplistic. Probably all ideological systems that humans have ever followed have been rich with mythol…

Well, I used the context of your assertion, I didn't assume it could be automatically reversed. > I am not negating that there are prejudice against men. I simply wish to point out the obvious - these prejudice are a product of patriarchy. The context of this statement implies the removal of patriarchy will affect these prejudices, and, as it makes no sense to argue for the removal of patriarchy if the effect would b…

Actually, patriarchy does espouse such a tenet. The household is meant for the woman, it is her responsibility, while a man is outside, working for the family. Even if they were not beneath him, an ideal man in patriarchy simply wouldn't be bothered with such menial tasks. This can only naturally produce such a trope. And, OTOH, women are very strongly associated with care and nurture for children, reinforcing the prejudice which causes the unjust treatment of men in custody cases.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#156

Post by bakhy »

redml wrote: post #150
bakhy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demonization of all things male? That's just ridiculous. There are nasty things both men and women have to struggle with. I'd say the problem with male suicides probably exists for longer than 20 years. Patriarchy has existed for a long time, and together with it its accompanying set of high expectations of men. Pressures to be strong, successful, never show emotion or weakness, to serve your family,.. there is nothi…

Using the word "Patriarchy" unironically gives away the fact you don't care about mens problems, because you're automatically blaming men for these problems. You live in an age of abundance now, but 50 or so years ago you might be singing a different tune, and you can't reprogram society overnight without causing serious harm.

You fail to grasp one crucial distinction - patriarchy is not a term that labels all men. It is a system. The crimes of patriarchy are not automatically the fault of all men. It is perfectly possible to be a man and against patriarchy (you're speaking with one right now, actually).

As for "reprogramming society" - that's just spreading FUD. Society is not a piece of stone, it changes constantly. And far from it that any of these changes happen simply overnight.

And to simply assume that patriarchy is the direct cause of our society's abundance today, well... to say the least, you may need to provide some proof :D

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#157

Post by belorn »

curun1r wrote: post #32
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

I think you're right about society's role, but I see a much more pernicious tendency that I think damages boys and, eventually, men. Society teaches boys to bottle up their feelings. "Be a man" means be strong, and don't show emotion. Crying is a sign of weakness. And god forbid you talk about your emotions...that's a female thing. But the thing is, those activities are what allow us to be vulnerable and what allow u…

An aspect of this problem is that society not only teaches people how to behave, but defines expected behavior. If a man defy those expectations and do seek help at a psychiatrist, a documented problem is that he won't be taken serious. Male patients get often too little or no medical support, while female patients suffer from over medication and forced hospitalization.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#158

Post by parennoob »

smorrow wrote: post #145
parennoob wrote: post #8

I think this article puts the euphemism 'social perfectionism' on the subtle, and in some cases blatant anti-male stance that pervades US and UK society today. Sports teams fall over themselves to wear pink for Mother's Day, hardly anyone celebrates Father's Day. [1] Time Magazine publishes an article on how "Men are Obsolete". [2] Politicians routinely trumpet the 77% pay gap despite it being "more complicated than…

> female teacher in California who had sex with her 14-year old male student gets only two years in prison Having sex with someone without their consent is rape, but that doesn't automatically mean it's a bad thing. A woman raping, in terms of actual consequences, isn't the same thing as a man raping. If a woman "raped" me, didn't get pregnant by it, didn't give me any skanky diseases, and didn't publicly accuse me o…

The law doesn't care what you think.

Calling it rape when a male student does it, but not when a female teacher does it is definitely evidence of bias in reporting.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#159

Post by bakhy »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #137
bakhy wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could start listing examples of injustices, each one of us could find them, and we would only get farther from finding any solution, or farther from just having a meaningful discussion. I am not negating that there are prejudice against men. I simply wish to point out the obvious - these prejudice are a product of patriarchy. It was not feminism that painted the picture of the man as incompetent parent. It is a ve…

>These prejudice are a product of patriarchy. No. E.g. The aggressively anti-male prejudice baked into domestic violence law is entirely the work of feminists. There are many other similar prejudices now. So it's simply dishonest to pretend that feminism has had no influence on family law, education, or many other areas where boys and men are struggling.

It's also dishonest to put such words in my mouth, when they were never said ;)

The disconnect, IMO, stems from the fact that women are fighting, and men are not. Or, perhaps better said, men are just beginning to frame an opposition. Women have stood up, organized, and brought attention to their problems (which were, without any doubt, seriously greater than men's), and achieved many victories. Standard democratic process. Now it's high time for men to do the same. However, if male action gets reduced to just attacking feminism and blaming feminism for everything, that sucks. It is one system, patriarchy, that causes all these problems. If some women and feminists are blind to the problems of men, is that really a surprise? Fully understanding someone else, someone whose shoes you haven't walked in, is incredibly hard. What we need is discussion, finding understanding, and fighting the common source of all these problems - patriarchy. And nobody can stand for men, but men themselves.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#160

Post by DanBC »

smorrow wrote: post #145
parennoob wrote: post #8

I think this article puts the euphemism 'social perfectionism' on the subtle, and in some cases blatant anti-male stance that pervades US and UK society today. Sports teams fall over themselves to wear pink for Mother's Day, hardly anyone celebrates Father's Day. [1] Time Magazine publishes an article on how "Men are Obsolete". [2] Politicians routinely trumpet the 77% pay gap despite it being "more complicated than…

> female teacher in California who had sex with her 14-year old male student gets only two years in prison Having sex with someone without their consent is rape, but that doesn't automatically mean it's a bad thing. A woman raping, in terms of actual consequences, isn't the same thing as a man raping. If a woman "raped" me, didn't get pregnant by it, didn't give me any skanky diseases, and didn't publicly accuse me o…

> I'd probably enjoy it.

That's not how child abuse works.

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