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The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

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Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#141

Post by whybroke »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

"In every country in the world..." Obviously including extreme male centered societies like Iran and Saudi Arabia

"middle-aged men are most at risk" So obviously not a recent attack on male children. Indeed the problem is greatest among people who are older then the average poster to this thread let alone their often hypothetical children.

There is obviously a serious problem here, apparently related to age, and instead of a sensible discussion it's shoehorned into some men's right agenda. It appears that HN is frequented by individuals so extremist it clouds even their basic critical thinking.

It makes about as much sense as claiming George Price's mental illness didn't cause his suicide but his generosity did it. Or voting to the front page an article about ending the fiscal "evils" of democracy by building an unseaworthy boat.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#142

Post by [deleted] »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

[deleted]

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#143

Post by aquadrop »

fierycatnet wrote: post #58
voltagex_ wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you, what's your budget and what do you enjoy?

I am in TX with a budget of ~1500 for a week or two. The longer and cheaper alone time is better. What do I like, you know I've been so slammed and in my head that I can't even pick a vacation spot or remember what I like. I think I'd enjoy just some peace somewhere, disconnected from it all for a week or two.

What about Mexico? It's near, you'll be disconnected in another country and I think you can find something cheap but good there.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#144

Post by mattlutze »

bakhy wrote: post #114
mattlutze wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> these prejudice are a product of patriarchy. Is this the argument to make, though? It forces the assertion that "if not for patriarchy, these prejudices wouldn't exist." I'm not sure that that logically follows. > It was not feminism that painted the picture of the man as incompetent parent. It is a very old tenet of patriarchy, that mothers are better parents. That men go around drinking, fighting, they are too ag…

> It forces the assertion that "if not for patriarchy, these prejudices wouldn't exist." Implications cannot be automatically reversed, as anyone visiting this site should know ;) I.e. "Patriarchy => prejudice X" does not automatically imply "!Patriarchy => !prejudice X". As for your explanation on patriarchy, it is simplistic. Probably all ideological systems that humans have ever followed have been rich with mythol…

Well, I used the context of your assertion, I didn't assume it could be automatically reversed.

> I am not negating that there are prejudice against men. I simply wish to point out the obvious - these prejudice are a product of patriarchy.

The context of this statement implies the removal of patriarchy will affect these prejudices, and, as it makes no sense to argue for the removal of patriarchy if the effect would be negative (!patriarchy => n * (prejudice X) where n > 1), and since the assertion establishes a correlation between the two (n cannot be 1), we're led to assume you mean !patriarchy => n * (prejudice X) where n Patriarchy doesn't traditionally espouse the tenant of a useless father figure in the household. The distilled archetype being discussed is a modern comedy trope born of gender exploration from the last 40 years.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#145

Post by smorrow »

parennoob wrote: post #8

I think this article puts the euphemism 'social perfectionism' on the subtle, and in some cases blatant anti-male stance that pervades US and UK society today. Sports teams fall over themselves to wear pink for Mother's Day, hardly anyone celebrates Father's Day. [1] Time Magazine publishes an article on how "Men are Obsolete". [2] Politicians routinely trumpet the 77% pay gap despite it being "more complicated than…

> female teacher in California who had sex with her 14-year old male student gets only two years in prison

Having sex with someone without their consent is rape, but that doesn't automatically mean it's a bad thing. A woman raping, in terms of actual consequences, isn't the same thing as a man raping. If a woman "raped" me, didn't get pregnant by it, didn't give me any skanky diseases, and didn't publicly accuse me of being the rapist, then I'd probably enjoy it. At worst, it might be a slight inconvenience for me.

Everybody knows this on an instinctive level, which is why we let them away with it. (Well, there's also an innate disposition against hitting any women or children, which might be why we let them away with it even when they do do something wrong.)

I'd say the _real_ female equivalent of raping someone, in terms of harm to the opposite sex, would be... getting pregnant on purpose so that you can get married or some bullshit.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#146

Post by Dewie3 »

barry-cotter wrote: post #108
smil wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your opinion isn't dissent, it's the generally accepted view.

I am proud to have been the first to downvote him but I upvoted his response to you because you're wrong. I don't consider the time engaging him would take to be worth it but I disagree with it. I'm sympathetic to some of what some MRAs say but think some of them are vile people of the same ilk as Amanda Marcotte but on the other side. But the most important thing about MRA is that it's a movement doomed to fail beca…

> As such lift heavy,

Is this supposed to be a joke? That's really the best advice to deal with this situation that you have?

Whenever I see "start lifting", I can't decide if they really believe in it as a magic bullet or if they're taking the piss.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#147

Post by DanBC »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #137
bakhy wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could start listing examples of injustices, each one of us could find them, and we would only get farther from finding any solution, or farther from just having a meaningful discussion. I am not negating that there are prejudice against men. I simply wish to point out the obvious - these prejudice are a product of patriarchy. It was not feminism that painted the picture of the man as incompetent parent. It is a ve…

>These prejudice are a product of patriarchy. No. E.g. The aggressively anti-male prejudice baked into domestic violence law is entirely the work of feminists. There are many other similar prejudices now. So it's simply dishonest to pretend that feminism has had no influence on family law, education, or many other areas where boys and men are struggling.

> The aggressively anti-male prejudice baked into domestic violence law is entirely the work of feminists

Ou don't think it has anything to do with the vast numbers of women killed by men? Very few men are murdered by their wives.

While domestic abuse from women against men is important please don't make the mistake of saying the levels of severity of violence is the same.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#148

Post by smorrow »

pikachu_is_cool wrote: post #59
vijayr wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at some of the stories from the media. Some airlines will not allow males sit next to unaccompanied children. A theme park bans single males from bird watching, "in case they are predators". Female sexual assaults are disgusting while male sexual assaults are funny, to most people. If a little girl has a problem, it is immediately attended to, whereas if a little boy has a problem, he is told to "be a man and su…

Going off of that Vice article, sometimes I think that a 40/60 ratio of men to women would be favorable... it'd probably reflect the proportions of our hunter gatherer ancestry, and a lot of psychological benefits would come with that I'd imagine. But everything else she said was extremely misandrist and sexist.

It would be good for people's mental health. No one woman can provide the amount of sex a man physically needs for his mental health.

And women are secretly happy to see that their man still has what it takes to attract other women, isn't lying to himself about his nature, etc.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#149

Post by Ntrails »

Nursie wrote: post #117
steve19 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience has taught me the opposite. My grandfather and father were never taught to express feelings. Both were products of their time and circumstances. And there is nothing wrong with that. Both were successful in life despite the odds being stacked against them. I do not have children. I would not have a clue how to raise a girl, but if I had a boy, I would be teaching him stoical techniques to dealing with p…

There's a HUGE difference between "don't sweat the small stuff" and "keep your feelings to yourself". All of those things you mention are of the former, not the latter category. One can be stoic and unconcerned with the problems the world throws at you but still connect to people on an emotional level. This is something older generations of my extended family absolutely failed at, due mostly to old-fashioned englishn…

It's OK to be a tough man who can take it on the chin, and also to admit you love your friends and family.

Stoicism has nothing to do with being unable to express love/affection?

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#150

Post by redml »

bakhy wrote: post #89
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

Demonization of all things male? That's just ridiculous. There are nasty things both men and women have to struggle with. I'd say the problem with male suicides probably exists for longer than 20 years. Patriarchy has existed for a long time, and together with it its accompanying set of high expectations of men. Pressures to be strong, successful, never show emotion or weakness, to serve your family,.. there is nothi…

Using the word "Patriarchy" unironically gives away the fact you don't care about mens problems, because you're automatically blaming men for these problems.

You live in an age of abundance now, but 50 or so years ago you might be singing a different tune, and you can't reprogram society overnight without causing serious harm.

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