The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills • Hacker News Board

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#71

Post by s_baby » Wed, May 13, 2015, 7:03 AM UTC

GhotiFish wrote: post #11

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

I don't understand this. In most stories, arn't protagonists primarily male? Arn't they typically courageous, or intelligent, or unyielding, or strong, or determined? I don't understand.

>I don't understand this. In most stories, arn't protagonists primarily male? Arn't they typically courageous, or intelligent, or unyielding, or strong, or determined?

That is a common motif. Is it easy being expected to be unyielding/strong/determined/etc? You have lower social value when you aren't adhering to this role. When you are adhering to this role you are making yourself disposable to a "higher cause". In other words making yourself cannon fodder or getting black lung in some coal mine.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#72

Post by tdkl » Wed, May 13, 2015, 7:06 AM UTC

Drummond was a social perfectionist because he was unconsciously trying to please his absent father. The effect of how a child grows up is astounding to his further development in life.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#73

Post by sukilot » Wed, May 13, 2015, 7:09 AM UTC

alextgordon wrote: post #44

curun1r wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right about society's role, but I see a much more pernicious tendency that I think damages boys and, eventually, men. Society teaches boys to bottle up their feelings. "Be a man" means be strong, and don't show emotion. Crying is a sign of weakness. And god forbid you talk about your emotions...that's a female thing. But the thing is, those activities are what allow us to be vulnerable and what allow u…

Everybody's brain is wired differently (and infused with a different cocktail of chemicals). For me, controlling my emotions brings a sense of inner calm -- happiness. There is nothing better than thinking with a clear head, without being dogged by feelings of anger, anxiety, jealousy, fear or sadness.

Often happiness, thrill, arousal is better than thinking with a clear head.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#74

Post by sukilot » Wed, May 13, 2015, 7:15 AM UTC

cmelbye wrote: post #27

GhotiFish wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this. In most stories, arn't protagonists primarily male? Arn't they typically courageous, or intelligent, or unyielding, or strong, or determined? I don't understand.

In older stories, sure. But the "action hero" died a while ago. Have you not noticed the rise of the weak male lead in movies/TV/commercials? It's hugely prevalent in romantic comedies, but even TV shows like Modern Family (bumbling Phil and razor-sharp Claire) depict archetypes that are becoming quite common. The formula is a charming yet incompetent male lead who's mainly driven by sex, paired with a strong, capabl…

Why do you prefer seeing men only as action hero? In fact, many boys will grow up to be goofy dads.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#75

Post by sukilot » Wed, May 13, 2015, 7:18 AM UTC

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #26

GhotiFish wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this. In most stories, arn't protagonists primarily male? Arn't they typically courageous, or intelligent, or unyielding, or strong, or determined? I don't understand.

It's a valid question, but most people I know (including my boys) identify far more with the guys on Big Bang Theory than Bruce Willis in Die Hard, and those guys are every negative archetype of maleness (sexist, unable to care for oneself, etc) wrapped up in a pseudo-intellectualized package. The one exception was Penny's boy friend, who filled "stupid jock".[1] What Bruce Willis brings to the table is this idealize…

BBT has had nerdy women for a few seasons already. And most of the characters take care of themselves in their own apartment, and have highly respected careers. The nerdy women are actually a bit stronger than the nerdy men.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#76

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 13, 2015, 7:18 AM UTC

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #26

GhotiFish wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this. In most stories, arn't protagonists primarily male? Arn't they typically courageous, or intelligent, or unyielding, or strong, or determined? I don't understand.

It's a valid question, but most people I know (including my boys) identify far more with the guys on Big Bang Theory than Bruce Willis in Die Hard, and those guys are every negative archetype of maleness (sexist, unable to care for oneself, etc) wrapped up in a pseudo-intellectualized package. The one exception was Penny's boy friend, who filled "stupid jock".[1] What Bruce Willis brings to the table is this idealize…

[deleted]

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#77

Post by mafribe » Wed, May 13, 2015, 7:19 AM UTC

brookside wrote: post #17

Dewie3 wrote: post #5

> When they finally divorced, Livvy got the house, the children, the lot. Once the maintenance was paid, there wasn’t much left for Drummond. I guess getting suicidal over things like this is "social perfectionism".

Indeed, it seems as though Drummond's suffered from real setbacks and a lack of true social connectedness. I'm not sure why he would be chosen to be the centerpiece of this article about social perfectionists.

Calling loosing one's house and children a setback trivialises the matter, as if it happened by random chance. Instead he was the victim of institutionalised sexism/misandry in the UK which more or less automatically gives preference to women in divorce cases.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#78

Post by sukilot » Wed, May 13, 2015, 7:25 AM UTC

esthlos wrote: post #51

I'd like to offer a different perspective. Suicide is a violent crime, the killing of a human being. Now, if we believe Wikipedia, then around 90% of homicides in the US will be committed by males. It seems reasonable that the male-female ratio should be about the same in the UK. Then a 0.8 ratio of male to female suicides could be accounted for by the increased male homicide rate alone. The Wikipedia page: http://en…

For whatever reason, men tend to choose more lethal forms of self harm (guns, cars) than women (cutting, pills)

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#79

Post by sukilot » Wed, May 13, 2015, 7:29 AM UTC

brookside wrote: post #17

Dewie3 wrote: post #5

> When they finally divorced, Livvy got the house, the children, the lot. Once the maintenance was paid, there wasn’t much left for Drummond. I guess getting suicidal over things like this is "social perfectionism".

Indeed, it seems as though Drummond's suffered from real setbacks and a lack of true social connectedness. I'm not sure why he would be chosen to be the centerpiece of this article about social perfectionists.

Social norms push men into family/friendships less than women. For the average man, his spouse is the bridge to his social world. Women have more direct connections. A man depends on his family for social stability more than a women does.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#80

Post by XJOKOLAT » Wed, May 13, 2015, 7:30 AM UTC

cmelbye wrote: post #27

GhotiFish wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this. In most stories, arn't protagonists primarily male? Arn't they typically courageous, or intelligent, or unyielding, or strong, or determined? I don't understand.

In older stories, sure. But the "action hero" died a while ago. Have you not noticed the rise of the weak male lead in movies/TV/commercials? It's hugely prevalent in romantic comedies, but even TV shows like Modern Family (bumbling Phil and razor-sharp Claire) depict archetypes that are becoming quite common. The formula is a charming yet incompetent male lead who's mainly driven by sex, paired with a strong, capabl…

I recall an article on exactly this suggesting that this is the only stereotype that TV can screen now which won't offend.

For example, switch around the person who embodies the bumbling figure and in most cases it would be frowned upon or not effective.

It's possibly a power thing. Maybe it's ok and fun (not right) to poke fun at those perceived with the most social power. In most other situations, it's like kicking someone when they're down. I didn't say I agreed with this, just that it might explain why it is more "acceptable" at the moment.

Above everything though, I do find this set up incredibly boring. It was funny the first couple of times but it's been done ad nauseum now. Ad agencies and comedy writers, please up your game.