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The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

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Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#171

Post by exo762 »

Nursie wrote: post #161
exo762 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The difference is that they don't make up the whole of that movement. I'm pretty sure that this statement makes you a misandrist. FYI, MRM does not include actually PUA and MGTOW. Different goals.

>> I'm pretty sure that this statement makes you a misandrist. You'd be wrong then. Misandry would be the hating or disparaging of men as a group, not the hating or disparaging of the MRA movement as it exists right now. As a man, I do not identify with MRA and neither am I offended if someone criticises them, it is not misandry to do so. As I said - I can see that there could be a mens rights movement that addressed…

And you are conflating anti-feminism with misogyny. It's very hard not to be anti-feminist when NOW is sabotaging shared parenting[1]. Feminism can't be natural ally of mens' rights because it is actively pushing against it. And please don't say that it is the issue with fringe feminists. NOW is not fringe, its as mainstream as it gets.

Have you heard what feminists say about legal parental surrender, military draft, circumcision, false accusations etc? Dodging the issue, invoking "it's patriarchy", FGM straw man and so on. With variations of "XYZ can't be fixed because its biology" or "add more feminism".

You are right on one thing. Traditionalist women are actually much worse than feminists when it comes to MR. Unfortunately feminists cater to this particular "electorate" and because of that feminists are not allies of MRM (outside of /r/FeMRADebates).

[1] http://www.nownys.org/fathers_resp.html

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#172

Post by sirclueless »

sukilot wrote: post #73
alextgordon wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody's brain is wired differently (and infused with a different cocktail of chemicals). For me, controlling my emotions brings a sense of inner calm -- happiness. There is nothing better than thinking with a clear head, without being dogged by feelings of anger, anxiety, jealousy, fear or sadness.

Often happiness, thrill, arousal is better than thinking with a clear head.

Are they? To me it seems obvious that if one is seeking those emotions actively, then one will be disappointed or worse if they prove unattainable.

For whatever reason, be it psychological or physiological, it is clear that humans cannot maintain a perpetual high. The serotonin is expended, the stimulant wears off, unhealthy dependencies on emotional states are created. An even keel is worth any number of highs in my opinion. The goal should not be an emotion or a high-water mark, but rather to make progress. Progress is tangible, you can hang your hat on it and be proud of it, and most importantly it's available to you no matter how poor your circumstances or station in life are.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#173

Post by Nursie »

exo762 wrote: post #171
Nursie wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I'm pretty sure that this statement makes you a misandrist. You'd be wrong then. Misandry would be the hating or disparaging of men as a group, not the hating or disparaging of the MRA movement as it exists right now. As a man, I do not identify with MRA and neither am I offended if someone criticises them, it is not misandry to do so. As I said - I can see that there could be a mens rights movement that addressed…

And you are conflating anti-feminism with misogyny. It's very hard not to be anti-feminist when NOW is sabotaging shared parenting[1]. Feminism can't be natural ally of mens' rights because it is actively pushing against it. And please don't say that it is the issue with fringe feminists. NOW is not fringe, its as mainstream as it gets. Have you heard what feminists say about legal parental surrender, military draft,…

>> And you are conflating anti-feminism with misogyny.

No, I'm not, in fact I'm explicitly and deliberately not doing that, as I said here -

"I'll concede that a lot of outspoken feminists often try to intentionally confuse this issue as well, painting anyone who disagrees with any facet of feminism, no matter how extreme, as being misogynist."

>> Feminism can't be natural ally of mens' rights because it is actively pushing against it.

I disagree.

--edit-- In fact I disagree entirely, there's no reason at all that a mens rights movement could not exist to push the issues you call out, and work alongside a feminist movement working on feminist issues. Women campaigning for greater access to the workplace, and against street harassment, are not in opposition to men wanting greater access to their children. This is what I mean by natural allies.

The idea that they are necessarily in opposition is childish.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#174

Post by bakhy »

mattlutze wrote: post #169
bakhy wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, patriarchy does espouse such a tenet. The household is meant for the woman, it is her responsibility, while a man is outside, working for the family. Even if they were not beneath him, an ideal man in patriarchy simply wouldn't be bothered with such menial tasks. This can only naturally produce such a trope. And, OTOH, women are very strongly associated with care and nurture for children, reinforcing the pr…

It feels like there's a lot of projection going on here.

Well, that's what I get... I try really hard to keep it civil, to address your comments honestly (even though I was tempted to ask you if you ever met any people, so disconnected from reality your ideas seemed), and in return I get this pathetic piece of ad hominem. Shame on you.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#175

Post by exo762 »

smorrow wrote: post #166
exo762 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Having sex with someone without their consent is rape, but that doesn't automatically mean it's a bad thing. Penal code begs to differ. But it is refreshing to see actual rape apologist in the wild. >> If a woman "raped" me, didn't get pregnant by it, didn't give me any skanky diseases, and didn't publicly accuse me of being the rapist, then I'd probably enjoy it. At worst, it might be a slight inconvenience for m…

>> that doesn't automatically mean it's a bad thing. > Penal code begs to differ. It's well known on the Internet (at least) that legal and illegal aren't the definitions of good and bad. > Shattered self evaluation, acute stress disorder, PTSD etc. Of course if you only ask people who found it bad enough that they had to talk to someone about it... > That's not how child abuse works. I thought we were talking about…

Half of your post answers someone else points.

>>> that doesn't automatically mean it's a bad thing.

>> Penal code begs to differ.

> It's well known on the Internet (at least) that legal and illegal aren't the definitions of good and bad.

Its well known among lawyers that things that are in Penal Code are Bad as in "whole society think that such behavior is unacceptable and should be punished". This is the main defining characteristic that separates material in Penal Code from stuff in Civil Code. And since its HN, I assume that you know set theory and I don't have to explain what does follows and what does not.

>> Shattered self evaluation, acute stress disorder, PTSD etc.

> Of course if you only ask people who found it bad enough that they had to talk to someone about it...

You know that some percentage of violent rape women victims actually reach orgasm?

>> That's not how child abuse works.

> I thought we were talking about a horny male 14 year old.

So if I'll find a horny female 14 year old I can totally "sex her up"?

You should probably read once again your posts. Your views on subject are already known, now why don't you think of potential social consequences of this fact.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#176

Post by bakhy »

kbart wrote: post #167
bakhy wrote: post #86

Queue male rights activists to explain to us how this is all feminism's fault :/ Tragic, really. Things like this seem to obviously stem from patriarchy. But instead of dismantling patriarchy, a small group of men simply blame everything on feminists. Those feminists, how dare they fight for themselves before they have solved the problems of men! :D

I don't see anything feminism related in this article. Neither anyone blamed feminism (or women in general) in the comment section (as a time of writing). Sorry to disappoint you, but not all problems in the world are feminism related.

I actually think this is related to feminism - as I said, patriarchy is the common enemy here. And I may have mentioned feminism first. So? Is "feminism" a curse word now?

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#177

Post by exo762 »

Nursie wrote: post #173
exo762 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you are conflating anti-feminism with misogyny. It's very hard not to be anti-feminist when NOW is sabotaging shared parenting[1]. Feminism can't be natural ally of mens' rights because it is actively pushing against it. And please don't say that it is the issue with fringe feminists. NOW is not fringe, its as mainstream as it gets. Have you heard what feminists say about legal parental surrender, military draft,…

>> And you are conflating anti-feminism with misogyny. No, I'm not, in fact I'm explicitly and deliberately not doing that, as I said here - "I'll concede that a lot of outspoken feminists often try to intentionally confuse this issue as well, painting anyone who disagrees with any facet of feminism, no matter how extreme, as being misogynist." >> Feminism can't be natural ally of mens' rights because it is actively…

They are not in opposition when it comes to idea and desired end goal. They are pretty much in opposition when it comes to political means of reaching that goal. You can't have social change without support of large part of population. MRM caters mostly to men, Feminism caters mostly to women.

> Women campaigning for greater access to the workplace, and against street harassment, are not in opposition to men wanting greater access to their children. This is what I mean by natural allies.

In theory. But in practice they are. Please read the link I provided.

I really hope that you are right and both movements can actually come and act together. Equal Rights Amendment was a beautiful thing, shame it died.

As for now we have rape-on-campus (not supported by statistical data) moral panic instead.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#178

Post by louhike »

mreiland wrote: post #122
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #10

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masc…

> As a society, we need to come to terms with masculinity. That means men need to be able to be masculine without being domineering and without being castigated. You're doing the exact same thing you're complaining about. This is a social problem towards men, it is not a mans problem they need to solve for themselves. The issue has nothing to do with masculinity and everything to do with the current crop of overly lo…

They did not win, they just managed to be listened to. Women still have more difficulties than men. And telling that is not saying that men do not have problems.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#179

Post by vijayr »

Nursie wrote: post #119
vijayr wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at some of the stories from the media. Some airlines will not allow males sit next to unaccompanied children. A theme park bans single males from bird watching, "in case they are predators". Female sexual assaults are disgusting while male sexual assaults are funny, to most people. If a little girl has a problem, it is immediately attended to, whereas if a little boy has a problem, he is told to "be a man and su…

>> Feminism is cool whereas MRA is not The extreme voices of feminism are pretty awful, but AFAICT the entire MRA movement is made up of arseholes. It doesn't have to be, and there are issues to be addressed. It's just a shame it seems to be addressed by misogynist dickholes.

There are some topics that are impossible to discuss even for 5 minutes, before it turns ugly with labels, name calling etc. Gender topics top that list (others include religion, political affiliation, eating meat etc). May be what you are saying is true, still it would be nice to refrain from name calling etc, right? Not that it bothers me personally, it just diverts the conversation from the actual issue. In the end, many people just keep quiet as they realize nothing they say is going to help.

We have managed to figure out how to land on the moon and yet we can't figure out how to weigh certain issues on their merit, and merit only.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#180

Post by kaitai »

vijayr wrote: post #37
GhotiFish wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this. In most stories, arn't protagonists primarily male? Arn't they typically courageous, or intelligent, or unyielding, or strong, or determined? I don't understand.

Look at some of the stories from the media. Some airlines will not allow males sit next to unaccompanied children. A theme park bans single males from bird watching, "in case they are predators". Female sexual assaults are disgusting while male sexual assaults are funny, to most people. If a little girl has a problem, it is immediately attended to, whereas if a little boy has a problem, he is told to "be a man and su…

Most American women won't call themselves feminists because it has a bad image. Where do you get your idea of "cool"? I am curious!
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