When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid' • Hacker News Board

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#151

Post by nawitus » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:44 PM UTC

czep wrote: post #133

TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men die earlier, yes. You have a point there. [2][3] says that ~90999/100000 males survive to age 60 and ~94194/100000 females survive to age 60. That's a difference of ~3195/100000, or ~3.2%. However, the question becomes if men retire earlier. And the answer is no. [1] Women retire earlier than men on average (at least in Canada. Don't have stats handy for anywhere else, unfortunately). And that's measured in years…

Men at all age levels have higher insurance rates than women. This means they are riskier employees than women and if the reason women are being paid less is purely economic then the situation ought to be reversed and men should be paid less because of the higher risk. So clearly the reason is not economic but is a systemic bias. Yes, making an argument involving decisions that affect the life chances of human beings…

>Men at all age levels have higher insurance rates than women. This means they are riskier employees than women and if the reason women are being paid less is purely economic then the situation ought to be reversed and men should be paid less because of the higher risk.

That assumes that only insurance-based risk affects economics.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#152

Post by kmonsen » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:44 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #66

tormeh wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A solution is to just make everyone's tax reports public. The worst that happens is you get tasteless websites ranking who earns and owns most in your area. Really, that's it. Norway tried it and it got a little too tasteless for our politicians, so now it's a government website thing where anyone you view can see that you've viewed them. You still get some cool stats, though: http://www.dn.no/skattelister/#!/Norge/2…

I don't know what Norway's tax system is like, but there's too much detail in a US tax return. For one thing, it would tell my employer things about my family situation and spouse's employment, that might affect my bargaining power. For another, since I run a small business, it would reveal my sales volume, which is probably the most important piece of information for someone trying to decide whether or not to compet…

The tax returns are not public, just a summary of it. Adjusted income, tax paid and net worth.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#153

Post by poikniok » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:47 PM UTC

nickbauman wrote: post #143

sxp wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you know the salary of the people you're directly working with, things can get awkward. One alternative is to discuss salary with people who are sufficiently distant from your daily work but are expected to be making the same amount as you. For large companies, this would be people in different divisions who have the same title and years of experience. For small companies, you will probably need to talk to people…

Honest question: Why is it awkward? I think if people dig down deep and think about the answer to this question, there is no reason for this. Because nobody is ever paid what they're "worth." Assume for a moment that you don't need the money. Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren…

Honestly I think it is a bit sad that you cannot imagine that a person would prefer to do something other than work, and that the alternative must be to find other work to do. I have other things that I enjoy that are not my job, such as my family and my hobbies. Maybe look into one day finding something you enjoy outside of work.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#154

Post by Mckey » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:47 PM UTC

ordinary wrote: post #65

crazy1van wrote: post #24

This article seems to basically say its already illegal to prohibit employees from discussing pay (NLRA 1935) and it is certainly illegal to pay someone less based on race or sex (Equal Pay Act, and others) but the solution to wage discrimination is pass more laws that make it illegal-er. I have a hard time buying this argument. If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for…

If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for being women, I don't think another redundant law is going to change your behavior. Women don't earn about 18% less than men (OECD median, 2008)[0] because a small minority of employers pay women almost nothing, but because the vast majority of employers pay women (or blacks, or handicapped people) slightly less. Just like laws th…

Faulty basis on statistics. Say there's a restaurant and working there are Lisa and Bob, Bob makes 50 cents an hour more than Lisa makes. Both are restaurant workers, but the man gets more money, so it's illegal.

Where that analogy cripples is "restaurant worker", Bob is a cook, Lisa is a server, not the exact same job thus legal. Your statistics rank by general categories of work.

Your statistics are flawed. Any plausible proof you have of men making more than women, report it to the police or your lawyer.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#155

Post by acveilleux » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:52 PM UTC

TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #115

falcolas wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is less of an issue now than it used to be; most companies offer Paternity leave for the same amount of time these days. This amortizes the cost across all employees.

Men take less paternity leave on average than women take maternity leave. Not to mention that in the case of single births, you'll end up with the women taking maternity leave while the men don't. And with marriage stats the way they are... Which means that it's still advantageous for the company to hire men over women. Amortizing costs doesn't magically make the cost go away, it just hides it.

Depends on locale. In Quebec, men pretty much always take their paternity leave (at least 3 weeks, up to 5) and most of the maternity leave can be transferred to the father (up to 25-32 weeks, leaving the mother the minimum of 15-18 weeks) as well. That last part is uncommon but it does happen when the mother is the couple's highest earner (say a partner in a legal firm or a doctor) since the mat leave benefits are capped.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#156

Post by acveilleux » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:54 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #17

raverbashing wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, do you know what has a bigger impact than seeing your coworker's salaries? Seeing how much the customers of your company are billed for the job you do.

Generally, agreed, at least the first time. I was being paid.. $17/hr and being billed out at $100/hr. I moved to a company starting at $22/hr, being billed out at $150-$175/hr. The 'hourly' was just a breakdown of salaried - sometimes worked more than 40hrs, never paid for it. And I also get that people aren't 100% billable, you have to build in downtime to the salary, etc. I get it. But I do know in one year I bill…

I bet that was a nice raise too.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#157

Post by johngalt » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:54 PM UTC

uxp wrote: post #95

smm2000 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

18% number is bullshit debunked many times. When you control for occupation, working hours, etc between male and female - the difference in pay is only 2-3%

Here's a heavily sourced study that found that Utah women are paid about 69 cents for every dollar a man in Utah makes: http://go.nationalpartnership.org/site/DocServer/wf.epd.fact... It's not a national study, no, and Utah has been cited as being one of the top 5 states in the gender pay gap so this is admittedly higher than many other states. It also states that this gap remains at about the same amount (66 to 72 c…

The 69% number is simply a census comparison of all men and women that work full time. It doesn't take into account position, education, experience, or even hours worked beyond 35hrs.

When it later talks about 'the gap' remaining after accounting for other variables. It means a smaller gap and it cites different studies. It just doesn't provide the 'after controlling for choices' value, only that one exists.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#158

Post by Plasmoid » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:59 PM UTC

Marazan wrote: post #129

smm2000 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

18% number is bullshit debunked many times. When you control for occupation, working hours, etc between male and female - the difference in pay is only 2-3%

You say that like 2-3% is not completely fucking outrageous.

It's not outrageous if the margin of error is 2-3%.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#159

Post by raverbashing » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 8:01 PM UTC

czep wrote: post #136

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A solution is to just make everyone's tax reports public. Hell no. I don't want to be targeted be advertisers, penalised by insurers, and become a target for robbery because I have my personal information spread around for everyone to see. There's a lot of personal shit on your tax return. Far more than is even apparent. It can also expose your side business to your employer which could cause issues. I'm all for sa…

Criminals and marketers already know how rich you are based on where you live. Published tax forms will have no effect on your probability of being robbed. It argue tax forms are private, but that's what's at issue here. Many societies think this should be public information. It goes a long way towards preventing graft.

"already know how rich you are based on where you live"

Of course... Because if you live at place X you're rich and Y you're poor

That is naive at best.

"Published tax forms will have no effect on your probability of being robbed."

Of course not, so maybe you can start and put your tax info somewhere public.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#160

Post by varelse » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 8:04 PM UTC

IMO there is every incentive for employees to compare salaries (except at startups where total compensation is directly proportional to how much risk you took to get there). Everything below is about 1000+ or so employee well-established companies so salary ladders should long since have become consistent.

If you find out you're making more, question why your co-worker is making so much less. It could be you the next round.

If you find out you're making substantially less, you can try bringing it up with your boss, but your boss will likely channel that to HR and then HR will tell you why you aren't worth any more than your current salary (that's their purpose in this situation, don't fool yourself otherwise).

However, if you use this information as a sign that you should go interview to determine your market rate, and you get a better offer somewhere else, you can now use that as leverage against your current employer.

If they need you, they'll match the offer, and your compensation problems will go away for the next few years. At some companies, this is the easiest path to a raise despite the negative perception of "accepting the counter."

If they won't match the offer, then that's a great sign that it's time to leave.

IMO you should treat your job choices as an asset. If that asset starts lagging the market, you need to invest in another one.