When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid' • Hacker News Board

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#41

Post by TheLoneWolfling » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 4:00 PM UTC

throwaway217384 wrote: post #35

nawitus wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So does that mean that companies would favour women as they can be paid less?

Interesting question. I think many, men and women, are still biased against women because they believe they are catty and dramatic or are afraid of increased legal issues (lawsuits). These are obviously not reality either and it too sucks.

There's also an issue with maternity leave.

Maternity leave means that women effectively cost more than men for the same amount of work, in the long run and on average. This can be mitigated by laws, but cannot be eliminated without addressing the underlying social issues. And no, mandatory paternity leave doesn't eliminate it, as there are more single mothers than single fathers.

The logic is simple. Companies survive by making a profit. In order to do so, they attempt to cut costs for a given amount of work done. Currently, females on average end up spending more time on paid leave. Hence, there ends up being a bias.

And I'm not sure if it is one that can be fixed through legislation. Attempts in that vein tend to be counterproductive at best. It's more of a social issue.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#42

Post by daigoba66 » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 4:04 PM UTC

alimoeeny wrote: post #2

I understand that this is against the "wisdom", but I always wanted to build a compensation-transparent-company. In which it is open (at least internally) how much everybody makes (including equity). And people have ways to change their compensation over longish periods of time and the ratio of cash / equity.

It's a bit older, but an interesting take on open salaries: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000038.html

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#43

Post by odonnellryan » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 4:05 PM UTC

FigBug wrote: post #19

On a recent contract I took, the end client told me what they were paying for my services -- about 6x what I was getting paid. They were pretty annoyed, and I was threatened with legal action for discussing financial matters with an end client. I haven't heard from either side since December, so I'm guessing that contract is pretty much dead.

How is this unusual? You worked for a contracting/consulting firm directly?

The running rate for IT (not programming) work is $150/hr east-coast. That can get cut down, but is often even higher. The industry doesn't pay these techs more than $30 an hour.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#44

Post by rayiner » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 4:05 PM UTC

crazy1van wrote: post #24

This article seems to basically say its already illegal to prohibit employees from discussing pay (NLRA 1935) and it is certainly illegal to pay someone less based on race or sex (Equal Pay Act, and others) but the solution to wage discrimination is pass more laws that make it illegal-er. I have a hard time buying this argument. If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for…

One of the strongest benefits of salary transparency is the equalizing effect on salaries for women and minorities (and nerds who have trouble aggressively negotiating their salary!)

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#45

Post by odonnellryan » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 4:06 PM UTC

bsimpson wrote: post #26

FigBug wrote: post #19

On a recent contract I took, the end client told me what they were paying for my services -- about 6x what I was getting paid. They were pretty annoyed, and I was threatened with legal action for discussing financial matters with an end client. I haven't heard from either side since December, so I'm guessing that contract is pretty much dead.

IANAL, but I know people who went on to freelance directly for the client in similar situations.

Usually you sign some kind of non-compete, but I think it's bad business for the contracting company to follow through on it.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#46

Post by falcolas » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 4:08 PM UTC

TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #41

throwaway217384 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting question. I think many, men and women, are still biased against women because they believe they are catty and dramatic or are afraid of increased legal issues (lawsuits). These are obviously not reality either and it too sucks.

There's also an issue with maternity leave. Maternity leave means that women effectively cost more than men for the same amount of work, in the long run and on average. This can be mitigated by laws, but cannot be eliminated without addressing the underlying social issues. And no, mandatory paternity leave doesn't eliminate it, as there are more single mothers than single fathers. The logic is simple. Companies survi…

This is less of an issue now than it used to be; most companies offer Paternity leave for the same amount of time these days. This amortizes the cost across all employees.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#47

Post by tormeh » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 4:10 PM UTC

crazy1van wrote: post #24

This article seems to basically say its already illegal to prohibit employees from discussing pay (NLRA 1935) and it is certainly illegal to pay someone less based on race or sex (Equal Pay Act, and others) but the solution to wage discrimination is pass more laws that make it illegal-er. I have a hard time buying this argument. If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for…

A solution is to just make everyone's tax reports public. The worst that happens is you get tasteless websites ranking who earns and owns most in your area. Really, that's it. Norway tried it and it got a little too tasteless for our politicians, so now it's a government website thing where anyone you view can see that you've viewed them.

You still get some cool stats, though: http://www.dn.no/skattelister/#!/Norge/2013/

These are the tax statistics for 2013. The table at the bottom is the "top score". Position and name on the left with income, tax and wealth to the right, in that order.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#48

Post by tormeh » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 4:12 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #44

crazy1van wrote: post #24

This article seems to basically say its already illegal to prohibit employees from discussing pay (NLRA 1935) and it is certainly illegal to pay someone less based on race or sex (Equal Pay Act, and others) but the solution to wage discrimination is pass more laws that make it illegal-er. I have a hard time buying this argument. If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for…

One of the strongest benefits of salary transparency is the equalizing effect on salaries for women and minorities (and nerds who have trouble aggressively negotiating their salary!)

You can also join an engineering union. They can usually tell you what salary is common for your CV. Some may also negotiate on your behalf. All offer legal counsel. Depends on where you live, of course.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#49

Post by foolinaround » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 4:13 PM UTC

RankingMember wrote: post #8

foolinaround wrote: post #3

there is a need for some tool similar to glassdoor that can verify the authencity of the info posted by a user (email address, position, etc) that can be used reliably by others to confidently share salaries without retribution.

I had a similar thought with regard to verifying employment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8204401 Maybe we're on to something.

so, basically, a person signs up with some site with high degree of identification ( ssn, state id, email id, office id card, whatever, depending on the situation ).

So, his identity with the central site is intact.

Then, this person creates a throwaway id for this particular posting, and this throwaway cannot be openly linked back to the person, by anyone other than the site itself.

The weakness of course is in the central site. And to solve this problem, there are a few decentralized trust solutions

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#50

Post by wyager » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 4:20 PM UTC

TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #41

throwaway217384 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting question. I think many, men and women, are still biased against women because they believe they are catty and dramatic or are afraid of increased legal issues (lawsuits). These are obviously not reality either and it too sucks.

There's also an issue with maternity leave. Maternity leave means that women effectively cost more than men for the same amount of work, in the long run and on average. This can be mitigated by laws, but cannot be eliminated without addressing the underlying social issues. And no, mandatory paternity leave doesn't eliminate it, as there are more single mothers than single fathers. The logic is simple. Companies survi…

If women are actually, objectively, less productive workers (if your explanation is correct), why is it wrong for companies to pay them less?