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When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

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Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#91

Post by FigBug »

odonnellryan wrote: post #43
FigBug wrote: post #19

On a recent contract I took, the end client told me what they were paying for my services -- about 6x what I was getting paid. They were pretty annoyed, and I was threatened with legal action for discussing financial matters with an end client. I haven't heard from either side since December, so I'm guessing that contract is pretty much dead.

How is this unusual? You worked for a contracting/consulting firm directly? The running rate for IT (not programming) work is $150/hr east-coast. That can get cut down, but is often even higher. The industry doesn't pay these techs more than $30 an hour.

For $30 an hour I hope they are employees, not contractors, otherwise they are getting ripped off. Bill out rates for employees are usually a lot higher than their salary. The company has to pay for non-billable hours, office space, medical insurance, benefits, computers, tools, etc. In my previous experience, the bill out rates for sub-contractors is usually a lot closer to what they actually get paid since they need to cover all those costs themselves.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#92

Post by klagermkii »

throwaway217384 wrote: post #34
throwaway217384 wrote: post #25

I work for a smaller software company (~25 employees) and basically manage all things IT (internal business IT and software development). I'm responsible for the IT budget, our software developer salaries are the single largest company "expense". When I started several years ago it came to my attention that the existing developers and IT staff were drastically underpaid (there was one other internal developer, an int…

A few more things: Half the developers salaries are more than the managing partners salaries (although the managing partners get a bonus which then makes their annual income higher than anyone else in the company so long as the company does well). When I tell the employees not to discuss salary I offer them a few things to say in case another coworker asks them. My first go to reply is "I consider my salary and finan…

Need to be careful that you're not being the well-meaning villain in all of this. Reinforcing a social stigma of talking about salary problems with other people who may be having similar issues opens up a world where an awful lot of abuse can go unchecked, and even though you're quietly working behind the scenes to resolve it, it doesn't change that for several years those employees may have been making 40% below what they could have been earning.

If they had found out about it, and then decided to look for another better paying job, they could potentially be significantly further along in achieving their financial life goals compared to where they are now. Underpaying people isn't an entirely victimless scenario, and it might be a little bit paternalistic for you to encourage keeping them in the dark while you gradually sort it out.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#93

Post by jrs235 »

cauterized wrote: post #59
throwaway217384 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe this sometimes happens because women are less likely to counter-offer and negotiate during the hiring process. It sucks.

Which is in part because both men and women's perceptions of a woman become more negative when she negotiates.

Its even more than that. Our cultural biases lead us to perceive the same traits (e.g. assertive) differently. Assertive males are perceived as confident ans positively while assertive females are perceived as bitchty and negatively.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2012/09/04/gossipy-w...

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#94

Post by lotsofmangos »

bronbron wrote: post #79
lotsofmangos wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If women stopped getting pregnant then maternity would cease to be a societal cost, however the economy might get a little screwed as the human race dies off. Parents are your most productive employees. They are the only ones who are making more employees.

Eh, way in the future though. It's a classic tragedy of the commons. Each individual company is better off discriminating, but ultimately it causes a depletion in resources (i.e. employees) long-term.

Companies regularly last long enough to try and employ the children of their initial employees. 20 years is only getting into medium-scale planning in large amounts of industries.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#95

Post by uxp »

smm2000 wrote: post #69
ordinary wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for being women, I don't think another redundant law is going to change your behavior. Women don't earn about 18% less than men (OECD median, 2008)[0] because a small minority of employers pay women almost nothing, but because the vast majority of employers pay women (or blacks, or handicapped people) slightly less. Just like laws th…

18% number is bullshit debunked many times. When you control for occupation, working hours, etc between male and female - the difference in pay is only 2-3%

Here's a heavily sourced study that found that Utah women are paid about 69 cents for every dollar a man in Utah makes:

http://go.nationalpartnership.org/site/DocServer/wf.epd.fact...

It's not a national study, no, and Utah has been cited as being one of the top 5 states in the gender pay gap so this is admittedly higher than many other states. It also states that this gap remains at about the same amount (66 to 72 cents per dollar) regardless of industry, education level, or personal choices (eg, raising children or being married).

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#96

Post by tbrownaw »

wyager wrote: post #50
TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also an issue with maternity leave. Maternity leave means that women effectively cost more than men for the same amount of work, in the long run and on average. This can be mitigated by laws, but cannot be eliminated without addressing the underlying social issues. And no, mandatory paternity leave doesn't eliminate it, as there are more single mothers than single fathers. The logic is simple. Companies survi…

If women are actually, objectively, less productive workers (if your explanation is correct), why is it wrong for companies to pay them less?

How do you objectively measure the productivity of a programmer?

Or of a secretary / office assistant / whatever they're called these days (the person who's job is to make life easier for other people, so that said other people can get more of their own work done)?

If it was possible to objectively measure productivity, there wouldn't be any of these huge arguments about pay fairness.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#97

Post by freshhawk »

Karunamon wrote: post #71
smm2000 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

18% number is bullshit debunked many times. When you control for occupation, working hours, etc between male and female - the difference in pay is only 2-3%

Not that I don't believe you, but could you link to said debunking?

Here are two blog posts with summaries and good links to various studies (I know these are bad sources, but they make the point and were easy to find).

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gende...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-ga...

The 77 cents on the dollar myth actively shifts attention away from the real issues with gender roles and western culture in favour of a simple outdated narrative that isn't going to help anyone.

It's a useful shibboleth though, the people using it are either well meaning but uninformed or interested more in attention/marketing than actual equality.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#98

Post by uxp »

mabbo wrote: post #87
tormeh wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A solution is to just make everyone's tax reports public. The worst that happens is you get tasteless websites ranking who earns and owns most in your area. Really, that's it. Norway tried it and it got a little too tasteless for our politicians, so now it's a government website thing where anyone you view can see that you've viewed them. You still get some cool stats, though: http://www.dn.no/skattelister/#!/Norge/2…

In Canada, all public sector employees making more than $100,000 have their names and salaries published by the Government. But they don't adjust for inflation. In another decade or two, literally all public employees will have their salaries published.

In the US, all public sector employees have their salaries/income reported regardless of how much they make. My wife is a nurse at a public university hospital and has her salary published for anyone to see.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#99

Post by wyclif »

rokhayakebe wrote: post #68
crazy1van wrote: post #24

This article seems to basically say its already illegal to prohibit employees from discussing pay (NLRA 1935) and it is certainly illegal to pay someone less based on race or sex (Equal Pay Act, and others) but the solution to wage discrimination is pass more laws that make it illegal-er. I have a hard time buying this argument. If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for…

Is it that women get underpaid or is there more to it? Women and men should also tell every woman they know to negotiate their pay. The first offer is not something anyone has to take, and while this may be self evident here, it isnt everywhere.

Women engineers should be encouraged to learn how to negotiate salary themselves, or from a mentor. They should also be encouraged to view salary negotiation as a positive part of their soft skills, rather than a necessary evil.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#100

Post by enraged_camel »

IshKebab wrote: post #83
Karunamon wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I don't believe you, but could you link to said debunking?

I can't be bothered to find it, but I remember reading the same thing. I'm sure a short search will turn it up if you're interested in reading it.

You can't be bothered to find it, even though you think a short search will turn it up? Interesting.
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