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When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

theatlantic.com

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Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#61

Post by didgeoridoo »

crazy1van wrote: post #24

This article seems to basically say its already illegal to prohibit employees from discussing pay (NLRA 1935) and it is certainly illegal to pay someone less based on race or sex (Equal Pay Act, and others) but the solution to wage discrimination is pass more laws that make it illegal-er. I have a hard time buying this argument. If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for…

But how else will politicians get to claim credit for Doing Something About It?

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#62

Post by thatusertwo »

protomyth wrote: post #5

I was at a company[1] where all the bill rates for a consultant heavy project got leaked by bad permissions on documents. I didn't think much of it at the time because I knew my bill rate (my share was a %). There were a two groups of pretty ticked off people. The employees who were "underpaid"[2] and the consultants who didn't know their bill rate[3]. It is an odd example of what happens when every knows what the co…

25% sounds about right.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#63

Post by UnoriginalGuy »

tormeh wrote: post #47
crazy1van wrote: post #24

This article seems to basically say its already illegal to prohibit employees from discussing pay (NLRA 1935) and it is certainly illegal to pay someone less based on race or sex (Equal Pay Act, and others) but the solution to wage discrimination is pass more laws that make it illegal-er. I have a hard time buying this argument. If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for…

A solution is to just make everyone's tax reports public. The worst that happens is you get tasteless websites ranking who earns and owns most in your area. Really, that's it. Norway tried it and it got a little too tasteless for our politicians, so now it's a government website thing where anyone you view can see that you've viewed them. You still get some cool stats, though: http://www.dn.no/skattelister/#!/Norge/2…

> A solution is to just make everyone's tax reports public.

Hell no.

I don't want to be targeted be advertisers, penalised by insurers, and become a target for robbery because I have my personal information spread around for everyone to see.

There's a lot of personal shit on your tax return. Far more than is even apparent. It can also expose your side business to your employer which could cause issues.

I'm all for salary transparency, but tax returns are pretty private forms that contain an extremely high amount of PI, and can be data mined to expose even more implicit forms of PI.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#64

Post by [deleted] »

TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #41
throwaway217384 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting question. I think many, men and women, are still biased against women because they believe they are catty and dramatic or are afraid of increased legal issues (lawsuits). These are obviously not reality either and it too sucks.

There's also an issue with maternity leave. Maternity leave means that women effectively cost more than men for the same amount of work, in the long run and on average. This can be mitigated by laws, but cannot be eliminated without addressing the underlying social issues. And no, mandatory paternity leave doesn't eliminate it, as there are more single mothers than single fathers. The logic is simple. Companies survi…

[deleted]

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#65

Post by ordinary »

crazy1van wrote: post #24

This article seems to basically say its already illegal to prohibit employees from discussing pay (NLRA 1935) and it is certainly illegal to pay someone less based on race or sex (Equal Pay Act, and others) but the solution to wage discrimination is pass more laws that make it illegal-er. I have a hard time buying this argument. If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for…

If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for being women, I don't think another redundant law is going to change your behavior.

Women don't earn about 18% less than men (OECD median, 2008)[0] because a small minority of employers pay women almost nothing, but because the vast majority of employers pay women (or blacks, or handicapped people) slightly less. Just like laws that prohibit killing don't target psychopaths, laws that prohibit discrimination don't target the KKK; they (should) aim to change the societal norms that your average Joe McAverage conforms to. It's the distinction between institutionalized discrimination and the more intimate personal type.

_____

[0] The exact number is not really what's important here, but http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/57/40846335.pdf

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#66

Post by analog31 »

tormeh wrote: post #47
crazy1van wrote: post #24

This article seems to basically say its already illegal to prohibit employees from discussing pay (NLRA 1935) and it is certainly illegal to pay someone less based on race or sex (Equal Pay Act, and others) but the solution to wage discrimination is pass more laws that make it illegal-er. I have a hard time buying this argument. If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for…

A solution is to just make everyone's tax reports public. The worst that happens is you get tasteless websites ranking who earns and owns most in your area. Really, that's it. Norway tried it and it got a little too tasteless for our politicians, so now it's a government website thing where anyone you view can see that you've viewed them. You still get some cool stats, though: http://www.dn.no/skattelister/#!/Norge/2…

I don't know what Norway's tax system is like, but there's too much detail in a US tax return. For one thing, it would tell my employer things about my family situation and spouse's employment, that might affect my bargaining power.

For another, since I run a small business, it would reveal my sales volume, which is probably the most important piece of information for someone trying to decide whether or not to compete with me.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#67

Post by lotsofmangos »

wyager wrote: post #50
TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also an issue with maternity leave. Maternity leave means that women effectively cost more than men for the same amount of work, in the long run and on average. This can be mitigated by laws, but cannot be eliminated without addressing the underlying social issues. And no, mandatory paternity leave doesn't eliminate it, as there are more single mothers than single fathers. The logic is simple. Companies survi…

If women are actually, objectively, less productive workers (if your explanation is correct), why is it wrong for companies to pay them less?

If women stopped getting pregnant then maternity would cease to be a societal cost, however the economy might get a little screwed as the human race dies off.

Parents are your most productive employees. They are the only ones who are making more employees.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#68

Post by rokhayakebe »

crazy1van wrote: post #24

This article seems to basically say its already illegal to prohibit employees from discussing pay (NLRA 1935) and it is certainly illegal to pay someone less based on race or sex (Equal Pay Act, and others) but the solution to wage discrimination is pass more laws that make it illegal-er. I have a hard time buying this argument. If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for…

Is it that women get underpaid or is there more to it?

Women and men should also tell every woman they know to negotiate their pay. The first offer is not something anyone has to take, and while this may be self evident here, it isnt everywhere.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#69

Post by smm2000 »

ordinary wrote: post #65
crazy1van wrote: post #24

This article seems to basically say its already illegal to prohibit employees from discussing pay (NLRA 1935) and it is certainly illegal to pay someone less based on race or sex (Equal Pay Act, and others) but the solution to wage discrimination is pass more laws that make it illegal-er. I have a hard time buying this argument. If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for…

If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for being women, I don't think another redundant law is going to change your behavior. Women don't earn about 18% less than men (OECD median, 2008)[0] because a small minority of employers pay women almost nothing, but because the vast majority of employers pay women (or blacks, or handicapped people) slightly less. Just like laws th…

18% number is bullshit debunked many times. When you control for occupation, working hours, etc between male and female - the difference in pay is only 2-3%

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#70

Post by klibertp »

throwaway217384 wrote: post #25

I work for a smaller software company (~25 employees) and basically manage all things IT (internal business IT and software development). I'm responsible for the IT budget, our software developer salaries are the single largest company "expense". When I started several years ago it came to my attention that the existing developers and IT staff were drastically underpaid (there was one other internal developer, an int…

> And as much as I hate office politics, emotions getting in the way, and having to hack psychology, they exist and as the logical, analytical, and rational person I think I am those things must be factored into going about things.

You obviously thought about this and got it into account. But being a bit smarter ape that we are all, you decided on what way of going about this is best for you. As a rational ape you should at least understand this much.

The thing is, we are all mature apes and we understand possible problems and we can decide for ourselves if the risk is worth it in a specific situation we're in at one time or another. And we do so, and we have every right to do so, and you trying to take it away from us is very apish and understandable, but unacceptable behaviour.

When a colleague asks me about my salary I think about what to tell him for myself. I consider how well I know him, how long we've been working together, how likely he is to be underpaid, how likely he is to get angry because of it and so on and on. I then decide to either tell him or not, and also on how specific my answer should be, and so on.

Sorry, but I'll trust my own judgement over your arbitrary decision you made without taking into account any of those situation specific things, and - not to forget - for your benefit.

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