In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity • Hacker News Board

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#131

Post by pbhjpbhj » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 1:02 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #42

gambiting wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't and never was with grading. No one is giving higher grades than they should in those UK universities that I worked with - the issue is specifically with lecturers being instructed to write exams in such a way that most people pass, because doing otherwise is bad for the department and for publicity. Which results in exams which are stupidly easy for anything that doesn't have "engineering" in the name…

I envisaged creating exams would come under the remit of an examination board just as it does for A levels and GCSEs.

It's not just one board though, which shifts the problem, then the boards are motivated to make their exams easier because that wins them business from schools who are motivated to get higher grades regardless of the educational outcomes.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#132

Post by collyw » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 1:03 PM UTC

sergiosgc wrote: post #77

gaius wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school There’s no “seems” about it, 50% of school leavers going to university was an explicit policy goal. There’s no way to reconcile an institution of higher learning with one that has to accept anyone that applies

That makes no sense. It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality. I believe it is false. Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Taking in more students does not inhibit service quality, up to the capacity of the school, which can be easily scaled by hiring more…

Universities used to be elitist in that only the smartest got in.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#133

Post by ben_w » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 1:03 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #117

ben_w wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Only if everyone became a lot more skilled than their grades imply. Academic achievement is not be a perfect measure, but if you go from the top 3.4% of the population to the top 50%, the only possible situations are: 1) everyone is doing a lot better at school now 2) graduation rate goes down 3)…

It is not even the “top” 50%, because what of those who are perfectly capable but just don’t want to go to university? It is just 50% of the general population.

If it’s not the top 50% academically, the problem just gets bigger.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#134

Post by pbhjpbhj » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 1:04 PM UTC

stctgion wrote: post #60

gambiting wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just can't imagine how that would work? Maybe for some "core" modules - sure. But if you have a Russel group university with an industry leading ML course, where the professor behind the course is the leading researcher in the area - who is going to write the exam for it? The "problem" here is standardization(or lack of it) - and it's actually very good that university courses are not standardized.

You just paper swap with another uni. Oxford can hand it's engineering paper to Cambridge and see if it's hard enough etc. Not hard to do, it's just peer review for exam papers

Exam difficulty can't be assessed solely on the paper, the difficulty is also a function of the curriculum - if they teach to the exam, covering only a few topics which are then examined, then the exam is easier than if it selects questions from a broader curriculum.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#135

Post by peoplewindow » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 1:04 PM UTC

TheForumTroll wrote: post #70

pjc50 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I have no idea what you two are talking about. Could you enlighten those of us that don't know?

Haidt is a psychologist whose research and advocacy has in recent years moved towards political bias in universities, in particular he talks a lot about student and faculty driven morality-based censorship.

He started the "Heterodox Academy" which argues for and promotes ideological diversity (i.e. both left and right) in universities.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#136

Post by patricius » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 1:05 PM UTC

TheForumTroll wrote: post #57

patricius wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is a trite comment, but no, you still pay through taxes. The state has no money. I too live in a country with tax-financed universities.

There is quite a big difference between students alone paying 100 % (or more like 500 % in the US) and every citizen in a country sharing the price between them. Not only is it cheaper overall per capita but you also get much better tuition when schools don't go where they make the most money but concentrate on teaching and research. Look at how research in the US is today. Research what might make big money and when…

Of course there is a difference. You let others pay for your choices (studying). But it doesn't make it free.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#137

Post by SolaceQuantum » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 1:06 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #132

sergiosgc wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes no sense. It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality. I believe it is false. Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Taking in more students does not inhibit service quality, up to the capacity of the school, which can be easily scaled by hiring more…

Universities used to be elitist in that only the smartest got in.

I believe historically universities were elitist in that only the richest were meant to ever attend them, not the smartest...

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#138

Post by ben_w » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 1:06 PM UTC

Malarkey73 wrote: post #115

ben_w wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Only if everyone became a lot more skilled than their grades imply. Academic achievement is not be a perfect measure, but if you go from the top 3.4% of the population to the top 50%, the only possible situations are: 1) everyone is doing a lot better at school now 2) graduation rate goes down 3)…

That presumes That the top 3.4% really were just the smartest - not the also the wealthiest and best connected. There is probably both some dilution of talent and also more competition from all levels of society. And as to point 1. In the UK at least there is no doubt many many more are doing a lot better at school nowadays. Schools have evened up and pupils work far harder as most jobs require qualifications.

Those points are why I said academic grades aren’t a perfect measure, and also “Only if everyone became a lot more skilled than their grades imply.”

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#139

Post by patricius » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

sykh wrote: post #123

patricius wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is a trite comment, but no, you still pay through taxes. The state has no money. I too live in a country with tax-financed universities.

When someone says tuition is free or that healthcare is free what they mean is that using these services doesn’t cost out of pocket expenses and doesn’t lead to debt. In this sense those services are free.

Well, if we can redefine free to mean "I will let someone else pay for it" or "I will pay for it at some later date", then sure...

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#140

Post by c12 » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 1:08 PM UTC

sergiosgc wrote: post #77

gaius wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school There’s no “seems” about it, 50% of school leavers going to university was an explicit policy goal. There’s no way to reconcile an institution of higher learning with one that has to accept anyone that applies

That makes no sense. It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality. I believe it is false. Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Taking in more students does not inhibit service quality, up to the capacity of the school, which can be easily scaled by hiring more…

At the university I studied at it was well known that their policy was opening up campuses in Africa and China so to entice international students to the campus in England.

This was for the sole reason of increasing cash flow and I know several of the Chinese students that I did my Masters with were paying more than ten times what I was for the same course which both myself and our lecturers were ashamed of.

It may not be all Universities but even ten years ago it felt that they had become less about excellence in teaching and more about printing money.