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In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

theguardian.com

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Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#51

Post by aninhumer »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #31
mayniac wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a few issues with that link. Namely that a traffic light system is a huge, huge , HUGE oversimplification of complex issues. While the analysis seems fairly transparent, I don't think many people will actually look into it past the traffic light. I checked out the uni I went to: apparently the students union got an amber light because of "no tolerance to sexual harassment". How exactly does that violate free s…

That particular xkcd gets linked a lot in this debate. I really wonder what happened between when the author drew that comic and when he drew this one: https://www.xkcd.com/137/

Maybe he realised that speech has consequences beyond an employer not hiring him, and decided to take responsibility for those consequences?

And that rather than "watering down" ones thoughts, understanding the implications of language and avoiding unintended ones actually expresses your ideas better?

Or, in short, he grew up.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#52

Post by sheepmullet »

mayniac wrote: post #4
vixen99 wrote: post #2

And is the UK government behind the erosion of free speech identified at a large number of institutions who have banned and actively censored ideas on campus? Shall we assume they are helpless in the face of demands from Whitehall? http://www.spiked-online.com/free-speech-university-rankings

I have a few issues with that link. Namely that a traffic light system is a huge, huge , HUGE oversimplification of complex issues. While the analysis seems fairly transparent, I don't think many people will actually look into it past the traffic light. I checked out the uni I went to: apparently the students union got an amber light because of "no tolerance to sexual harassment". How exactly does that violate free s…

> guideline that sexual harassment is defined as ‘any unwanted comments which makes someone uncomfortable’

> Both of these appear reasonable to me.

How is that reasonable?

Essentially it makes sexual harassment entirely subjective.

That is ridiculously open to abuse.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#53

Post by golergka »

sgt101 wrote: post #23
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help feeling we would be better off if responsibility for grading was taken away from universities as it is for A levels and GCSEs. There are some problems with that but I suspect they would be outweighed by the benefits.

Tough to do this within the constraints of academic freedom; if an institution wants to offer a new course and they need to get certification by an authority and find externals to mark it... well could stall things by years?

Offer a course without a certification. Then, those students who are only in uni for the grades will not take it, but students who actually value knowledge will opt in for the course.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#54

Post by sudosteph »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #31
mayniac wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a few issues with that link. Namely that a traffic light system is a huge, huge , HUGE oversimplification of complex issues. While the analysis seems fairly transparent, I don't think many people will actually look into it past the traffic light. I checked out the uni I went to: apparently the students union got an amber light because of "no tolerance to sexual harassment". How exactly does that violate free s…

That particular xkcd gets linked a lot in this debate. I really wonder what happened between when the author drew that comic and when he drew this one: https://www.xkcd.com/137/

I don't see any incompatibility there?

Seems like in 137 he's saying that he doesn't want to sacrifice individuality and creativity for the sake of maintaining a banal existence that doesn't deviate from the norm out of fear. He's accepting the risks that come with making his opinions public, and challenging assumptions that he should just shut up, in part because he has confidence in the validity of his beliefs and a willingness to defend them.

The more recent one is about people who publicize poorly constructed opinions with no consideration to the potential consequences it will create for their interpersonal and community relationships. Those folks are welcome to say "fuck that shit" like the character in 137 and go build their own forums or whatever to spread and defend those ideas. But most of these types would prefer to whine and call themselves victims.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#55

Post by sheepmullet »

mayniac wrote: post #46
tzahola wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "sexual", define "harassment".

I'm not going to because that's a really fucking stupid argument.

> I'm not going to because that's a really fucking stupid argument.

Your comment honestly does make me feel uncomfortable.

Why is it ok on hn to make unwelcome and uncomfortable comments but not in a university setting?

Can we label you a harasser?

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#56

Post by PeterStuer »

It's the infestation of 'market' philosophy that is the grindstone on the academic values. Everything gets beaten into submission of an amoral self-referential quantitative utility framework. This has become so ingrained that many, if not most, don't even see it as a choice but simply accept it as some sort of universal law.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#57

Post by TheForumTroll »

patricius wrote: post #45
remedan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? I live in the west (continental Europe) and you can attend a good university for free here. The state pays your tuition.

I know this is a trite comment, but no, you still pay through taxes. The state has no money. I too live in a country with tax-financed universities.

There is quite a big difference between students alone paying 100 % (or more like 500 % in the US) and every citizen in a country sharing the price between them. Not only is it cheaper overall per capita but you also get much better tuition when schools don't go where they make the most money but concentrate on teaching and research. Look at how research in the US is today. Research what might make big money and when you get the chance run with it and start a company. That is a surefire way of running the school into the ground - or at least the quality of it.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#58

Post by dooglius »

te_chris wrote: post #33
Xuper wrote: post #5

It would be nice to see some STEM-affirmative universities without any x-studies leaching. Professional complainer is a viable career path these days and it starts at uni.

Ugh, that's dystopian. There's bullshit on both sides of the university (stem and humanities). They're symbiotic and they need each other and the world desperately needs more people skilled in both. Stephen Hawking doesn't become Stephen Hawking without an awareness and understanding of the humanities.

You are generalizing the criticism of "x-studies" to a criticism of the humanities as a whole, which I do not think is what was meant at all.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#59

Post by Shivetya »

noodlesUK wrote: post #47

As a university student in the UK I find myself reminded of these problems on a very frequent basis. The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school, with the sole objective of handing out degrees. One of the metrics that I feel indicates this most strongly is the radical change in hiring at universities in recent years. It's shoc…

I am a bit confused by the last statement. It can take a lot of man power to support the academics at any university. Now this is not to say that there isn't a lot of staff padding going on.

From supporting the physical site of the university which can be across multiple campuses to managing the life and well being of the students. Then top it off with administrative people and their support staffs the numbers can add up quickly.

I think a better metric is how many students, undergraduate and graduate/professional compared to academics and then separately non academics. If the the ratio of those who teach to those there to learn tips is outside of averages we have a real concern

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#60

Post by stctgion »

gambiting wrote: post #49
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I envisaged creating exams would come under the remit of an examination board just as it does for A levels and GCSEs.

I just can't imagine how that would work? Maybe for some "core" modules - sure. But if you have a Russel group university with an industry leading ML course, where the professor behind the course is the leading researcher in the area - who is going to write the exam for it? The "problem" here is standardization(or lack of it) - and it's actually very good that university courses are not standardized.

You just paper swap with another uni. Oxford can hand it's engineering paper to Cambridge and see if it's hard enough etc. Not hard to do, it's just peer review for exam papers
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