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In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

theguardian.com

41–50 of 248 posts

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#41
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help feeling we would be better off if responsibility for grading was taken away from universities as it is for A levels and GCSEs. There are some problems with that but I suspect they would be outweighed by the benefits.

Tough to do this within the constraints of academic freedom; if an institution wants to offer a new course and they need to get certification by an authority and find externals to mark it... well could stall things by years?

As I said there are downsides. I will say though that the courses on offer to my children when they went to university looked very similar. I'm not sure this would be a huge problem.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help feeling we would be better off if responsibility for grading was taken away from universities as it is for A levels and GCSEs. There are some problems with that but I suspect they would be outweighed by the benefits.

The issue isn't and never was with grading. No one is giving higher grades than they should in those UK universities that I worked with - the issue is specifically with lecturers being instructed to write exams in such a way that most people pass, because doing otherwise is bad for the department and for publicity. Which results in exams which are stupidly easy for anything that doesn't have "engineering" in the name…

I envisaged creating exams would come under the remit of an examination board just as it does for A levels and GCSEs.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#43
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all of West has it this way. US and UK yes, but rest of EU mostly has free college in same or higher quality.

Scotland is nowhere near as bad as the rest of the UK although you have to have put up with their dreary weather for three years before attending.

Unless you live in the EU - it's free then (after 2020... well...). For UK students you need to be domiciled in Scotland to qualify, which is lucky, as providing free university to a country with a population of 60 million from the Scottish (population 5 million) budget would be unsustainable.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#44
post #15
post #11

I have lost confidence in the western university system. Too much high exorbitant fees, with no future prospects but debt, so I have taken it myself to learn online via open courses.

Why? I live in the west (continental Europe) and you can attend a good university for free here. The state pays your tuition.

Not in the UK anymore unfortunately.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#45
post #15
post #11

I have lost confidence in the western university system. Too much high exorbitant fees, with no future prospects but debt, so I have taken it myself to learn online via open courses.

Why? I live in the west (continental Europe) and you can attend a good university for free here. The state pays your tuition.

I know this is a trite comment, but no, you still pay through taxes. The state has no money. I too live in a country with tax-financed universities.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#46
post #34
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a few issues with that link. Namely that a traffic light system is a huge, huge , HUGE oversimplification of complex issues. While the analysis seems fairly transparent, I don't think many people will actually look into it past the traffic light. I checked out the uni I went to: apparently the students union got an amber light because of "no tolerance to sexual harassment". How exactly does that violate free s…

Define "sexual", define "harassment".

I'm not going to because that's a really fucking stupid argument.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#47
As a university student in the UK I find myself reminded of these problems on a very frequent basis. The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school, with the sole objective of handing out degrees. One of the metrics that I feel indicates this most strongly is the radical change in hiring at universities in recent years. It's shocking to know that many universities (mine included) now employ more full time non-academic staff than full time academics.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#48
post #4
post #2

And is the UK government behind the erosion of free speech identified at a large number of institutions who have banned and actively censored ideas on campus? Shall we assume they are helpless in the face of demands from Whitehall? http://www.spiked-online.com/free-speech-university-rankings

I have a few issues with that link. Namely that a traffic light system is a huge, huge , HUGE oversimplification of complex issues. While the analysis seems fairly transparent, I don't think many people will actually look into it past the traffic light. I checked out the uni I went to: apparently the students union got an amber light because of "no tolerance to sexual harassment". How exactly does that violate free s…

>cannot be considered offensive >Both of these appear reasonable to me.

That is the issue. Just because someone considers something offensive does not make it so. With a tiny bit of effort, so many things can be "considered offensive". A generous interpretation would be that a governing body must consider it offensive, but more likely this means the recipient of a message can take offense where none is given.

But far more importantly, students should not be given protection from being offended. Harassment, sure, but offense? That's part of growing up.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't and never was with grading. No one is giving higher grades than they should in those UK universities that I worked with - the issue is specifically with lecturers being instructed to write exams in such a way that most people pass, because doing otherwise is bad for the department and for publicity. Which results in exams which are stupidly easy for anything that doesn't have "engineering" in the name…

I envisaged creating exams would come under the remit of an examination board just as it does for A levels and GCSEs.

I just can't imagine how that would work? Maybe for some "core" modules - sure. But if you have a Russel group university with an industry leading ML course, where the professor behind the course is the leading researcher in the area - who is going to write the exam for it?

The "problem" here is standardization(or lack of it) - and it's actually very good that university courses are not standardized.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#50
post #13
post #11

I have lost confidence in the western university system. Too much high exorbitant fees, with no future prospects but debt, so I have taken it myself to learn online via open courses.

Not all of West has it this way. US and UK yes, but rest of EU mostly has free college in same or higher quality.

With risk of being deemed survivorship bias, I went to a community college for the first 2 years in the US at a whopping $698 a semester, got my associates in science which transferred to a prominent a state college and counted for my Gen Ed requirements in my Computer Science degree so I was able to jump straight into CS courses. With tuition assistance (everyone qualifies at a certain level, unless you are uber rich), I ended up with around 10k in debt (mostly because I took some out to live a little more comfortably in school). That was about 5 years ago and that debt is essentially paid off.

My wife did almost the exact same thing. She has a small amount of debt, (15k) but that's mostly because she has 3 degrees, including a masters.

We've both been happily employed since.

Long story short: I think the "American University Debt Crisis" is largely overstated. I relate it to the housing crisis in 2008. Yes it was shitty for mortgage lenders to be giving out those loans to those people, but at the same time, you as an individual have to stop and think at some point and say "OK, I am a strawberry farmer that makes 30k a year, what business do I have buying a 500k house?"

You as an individual need to use some critical thinking and say, "OK my family / I make only X amount a year, what businesses do I have racking up 40-50k in student debt every year? Are there alternatives?"

The answer to the question "are there quality alternatives to simply racking up debt I will never be able to pay back and still be able to get an education?" is yes.

I should edit this to say: the debt crisis is real now because a large majority of these students did in fact take the loans and now have the debt. What I mean, however, is this "fact" that you must go into lifelong crippling debt to get a quality education is overstated.

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