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The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

bbc.co.uk

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Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#121

Post by lispm »

muyuu wrote: post #103
Uchikoma wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As this pops up everywhere, could you please cite a source from e.g. a ECB protocol or otherwise how Germany "controls the rates" or "enforces shockingly low borrowing rates" in violation of the ECB charta? The ECB back then set rates in accordance with inflation, e.g. to keep it low. That's the charta of the ECB. When a high inflation country joins a construct that has a goal of keeping inflation low, then yes you h…

The rates always follow the needs of Germany and sometimes France. The rates are discretionary and set by the president of the ECB. Borrowing in most countries with a "hot" Real Estate market was unstoppable. Only higher rates like they historically had could have controlled it. The dimension of the damage done by this policy is incalculable. There was no compromise. If a middle-ground, 5-6% rate had been set, the co…

The EU consists of independent countries which have their own governments, their own economic policies, their own banks, ... a real-estate bubble in Greece is fully the responsibility of Greece.

A hot 'real-estate' market not stoppable? Where was it tried?

How about Mexico? Would the US pay for Mexico to prevent a bancruptcy there?

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#122

Post by webnographer »

[deleted] wrote: post #98
iaskwhy wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also from Portugal but I have been working in London for some time now. Curiously, I don't see much of a difference besides now working only from 9 to 6 instead of working from 9 to 10. Same useless meetings, a very long line for coffee all day long, everyone is a manager, etc. My opinion is a simple one: some countries sell stuff others want, some don't. We were just unlucky and not smart enough to value our geo…

[deleted]

German manufacturing is where German productivity is high, not in services.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#123

Post by drzaiusapelord »

zerostar07 wrote: post #19

That number is (more than) a bit misleading. I don't know where OECD pulls those numbers but it certainly doesn't feel as if Greeks work more than the average european. Shops dont work on sundays, public services are open for only a few hours a day, banks close at 2 etc. Underproductivity is a major issue, most of the work of public services is unnecessary red tape that could be easily automated if the government was…

>Work hours is not our major problem, it's work ethics that are lacking.

The problem here is that you can't quantify "ethics." Up until today everyone believed your average Greek worked 3-4 hours a day and drank coffee the rest of the day. So your side has been debunked and you come back with "ethics?" Really?

At the end of the day these issues are fairly complex. There are a lot of Greeks who work hard, are far from lazy (as per German characterization), and have more or less been betrayed by their government. I also think its incredibly naive to think they could have a German-like efficiency becuse efficiency in manufacturing can only happen with deep pocketed corporations as well as a technical sector that can produce robotics and a worldwide market for its electronics of cars. We can build a Greek auto manufacturer with big loans today, make it incredibly efficient, etc but there's no market for Greek cars.

The lazy Greek stereotype needs to die. Yes, they have a very young retiree age and their tax system is a mess, but they're probably a handful of reforms away from fixing all this. Oh well, back to your typical stereotype based bashing.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#124

Post by webnographer »

iaskwhy wrote: post #77
TelmoMenezes wrote: post #59

I don't know about Greece, but I grew up in Portugal, and I suspect there are some similarities. People in Portugal "work" long hours. But they also work in a very infective way: long useless meetings, everything requires lengthy social interactions, bizantine bureaucracy, too many managers for too few real workers and so on. There are complex cultural problems that cannot be expressed by such simplistic metrics (and…

I'm also from Portugal but I have been working in London for some time now. Curiously, I don't see much of a difference besides now working only from 9 to 6 instead of working from 9 to 10. Same useless meetings, a very long line for coffee all day long, everyone is a manager, etc. My opinion is a simple one: some countries sell stuff others want, some don't. We were just unlucky and not smart enough to value our geo…

I have seen many greetideas come from Portugal, the challange is getting the ideas out of the door.You can read here about the start up scene in Lisbon http://squaxor.posterous.com/lisbon-the-startup-spirit

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#125

Post by pessimizer »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #92
anton_c wrote: post #36

It's very easy to blame simple people for the mess that capitalism created. "They spent a lot". Really? Who's to say? Did you ever wonder how much is spend on high tech weapons by your government? Do you KNOW what YOUR country's public debt is? Are YOU responsible for it (because you're gonna be held accountable for it either way). As easy as it is to buy mainstream media "analysis" it's also just that - mainstream,…

It's very easy to blame simple people for the mess that capitalism created. Greece has a problem with government debt. How do you blame capitalism for this? What happens in Greece is that we're taking loans upon loans to save defaulted banks that are based mainly in Greece, Germany and France. If that is the only problem, why not simply default and let the banks fail?

They really need to, and a large portion of the populace seems to be fighting for it.

Also, I'm not sure that we can blame Greek public debt for the rise in interest rates that's actually killing the country, seeing as Spain is going through a similar thing and they were running surpluses.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#126

Post by ctdonath »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #101

Facts that reconcile this article with what we already know: 1. The Greek labour market is inefficien t. That is why so many people work in small (inefficient) shops. Closed shop regulation for many professions lock people out of high wage occupations. Next to Portugal's 28% high school graduation rate [1] Greece's recent progress ( 2. Doing business is tough . Here is an anecdote from a financial commentator in Athe…

"books could not be purchased at the bookstore, as it was after 18h and it is illegal to sell books in Greece beyond that hour. I was in a bookstore/café that could neither sell books nor make coffee."

Unreal.

Note that it wasn't that the store was somehow incompetent, it's that doing something as simple & normal as selling a book after 6PM is illegal. Giving away brewed-in-house coffee is illegal. I'm having trouble articulating how profoundly outrageous this is, how self-destructive a country is which not only enacts such regulations but, it seems, tolerates it.

If mere sale of a book is prohibited during any hours (much less perfectly reasonable & normal hours), outsiders will find it hard to extend sympathy and aid to a country so keen on destroying its own economy via absurd legislation and citizens so willing to comply. I'm glad to help the needy, but that stops quick when the recipient won't quit obviously self-destructive behavior.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#127

Post by Dylan16807 »

nickik wrote: post #112
anotherthrow wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be a start, but probably only if banks were suitably sized and regulated in the first place which wasn't the case this time. Better bank regulation / breaking up banks going forward seems more sensible.

I would look into Hisotry and Economic Theory befor you make such clames. Specially about the size of banks, the US had strong regulations on bank sizes for a long time (I dont know when the stoped exactlly) and that lead to a massiv amount of bank failure in the great depression. About 8000 Banks failed in the US, most of them single branch (this is in a system with a central bank), while you look at canada where yo…

It sounds fine to me to have small banks failing with FDIC around. People don't lose their money, and someone with better business sense starts a new branch.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#128

Post by anotherthrow »

nickik wrote: post #112
anotherthrow wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be a start, but probably only if banks were suitably sized and regulated in the first place which wasn't the case this time. Better bank regulation / breaking up banks going forward seems more sensible.

I would look into Hisotry and Economic Theory befor you make such clames. Specially about the size of banks, the US had strong regulations on bank sizes for a long time (I dont know when the stoped exactlly) and that lead to a massiv amount of bank failure in the great depression. About 8000 Banks failed in the US, most of them single branch (this is in a system with a central bank), while you look at canada where yo…

>I dont know when the stoped exactlly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act

'Many commentators have stated that the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act’s repeal of the affiliation restrictions of the Glass-Steagall Act was an important cause of the late-2000s financial crisis.'

Here in the UK we had something similar with the 'big bang' of bank liberalisation in the 1980s, resulting in the City of London becoming the world's largest financial centre - and subsequent problems.

Whilst I'd look into History and Economic Theory, I wouldn't look to Cato Institute fellows for sensible views on this matter.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#129

Post by woodpanel »

When we talk about the shortcomings of Greece we should not forget that Greece was under military dictatorship up until the middle of the 70's (as were Spain and Portugal). And there were several terrorist bombings afterwards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Organization_17_N... just to name one of many groups).

As a German I'm getting tired of painting the Greeks as lazy. It's rather their country that's in a mess.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#130

Post by junto »

Greece's problems are predominantly due to state debt, caused by:

1) State Fraud and Corruption: "In early 2010, it was revealed that successive Greek governments had been found to have consistently and deliberately misreported the country's official economic statistics to keep within the monetary union guidelines."

2) Public Tax Evasion: "Greece suffers from very high levels of tax evasion. In the last quarter of 2005, tax evasion reached 49%,[142] while in January 2006 it fell to 41.6%.[142] The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over €20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece

My personal opinion is that I really don't see why the rest of Europe should bail the Greeks out. They should be booted out of the Euro.

> "The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German" Amount of time worked != productivity.

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