Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 152 posts

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#51

Post by megablast »

arethuza wrote: post #42
anotherthrow wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two points: 1. I wouldn't think for a second that Michael Portillo is a reasonable unbiased analyst here. 2. How do we prevent individuals from spending recklessly? Seems like government is going to have to play a large part in that story. On (2), it's not an issue of blame, and personally I'm not interested so much in who to 'blame' - we're doing economics, not philosophical ethics. Rather it's an issue about what w…

"How do we prevent individuals from spending recklessly?" How about not bailing out banks that insist on making poor loans?

What does one have to do with the other? Bailing out banks does not happen so people can still keep spending recklessly, it comes from the belief that letting banks fail will cause major harm to the financial system.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#52

Post by skore »

anton_c wrote: post #36

It's very easy to blame simple people for the mess that capitalism created. "They spent a lot". Really? Who's to say? Did you ever wonder how much is spend on high tech weapons by your government? Do you KNOW what YOUR country's public debt is? Are YOU responsible for it (because you're gonna be held accountable for it either way). As easy as it is to buy mainstream media "analysis" it's also just that - mainstream,…

The reason why you're being downvoted is because your argument is weak and, frankly, your tone is annoying.

> Do you KNOW what YOUR country's public debt is?

> not a single dime goes to roads,health or education

You cannot claim that the strawman you are postulating your response to doesn't know the first (it's very simple to look up) and thinks you are competent on the second statement (it's painfully obvious to be a fabrication).

Yes, there are problems like an eroding of the middle class or waste in government. But that's the same all over Europe - So why is it different in Greece? They are certainly not the only ones who have to bail out businesses or banks.

> As for the tax evasion bit, it's mostly true if we are to speak for a small fraction of the Greek population - namelly the rich and superrich Greeks. All the rest are paying our due for nothing [...]

Well, that's not at all an easy way to pass blame, is it?

> [...] for two decades every banks were all over people to persuade them to get loans [...] buy shit from Germany and France (that's why many say that these countries surplasses are European south deficits). This was evident at a state level too with huge amounts going to buy arms from these two countries.

And this is the point at which you finally lose all credibility. It simply does not compute.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#53

Post by ticks »

anotherthrow wrote: post #34
kamaal wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that's the documentary, Its a nice one to watch. What I realized about the entire chapter of Greece was that you can't blame the government and corporations for all the problems in the world. Sometimes we as individuals need to step back and think of our own financial future. Reckless spending on our behalf without planning for the future are disastrous. Savings and investments are important for our future. And w…

Two points: 1. I wouldn't think for a second that Michael Portillo is a reasonable unbiased analyst here. 2. How do we prevent individuals from spending recklessly? Seems like government is going to have to play a large part in that story. On (2), it's not an issue of blame, and personally I'm not interested so much in who to 'blame' - we're doing economics, not philosophical ethics. Rather it's an issue about what w…

In relation to point one. Everyone is biased no matter how hard they try not to be, at least with Portillo you know what you are getting and can treat it with a pinch of salt.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#54

Post by tallanvor »

zerostar07 wrote: post #19

That number is (more than) a bit misleading. I don't know where OECD pulls those numbers but it certainly doesn't feel as if Greeks work more than the average european. Shops dont work on sundays, public services are open for only a few hours a day, banks close at 2 etc. Underproductivity is a major issue, most of the work of public services is unnecessary red tape that could be easily automated if the government was…

Admittedly my exposure to opening hours in Greece is limited to the tourist areas, but I've found they have longer opening hours than most places in Western Europe. --Definitely longer hours than the UK, Germany, or anywhere in Scandinavia!

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#55

Post by Luyt »

zerostar07 wrote: post #29
Heliosmaster wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? Because I find shops open from early morning till late night: from general goods to restaurants and so on.

What about everything else? Are gas stations open on sundays? Pharmacies in the afternoon? Are government offices open after 13:00?

The government closes down after 13:00 for the whole afternoon? Or only for a siesta?

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#56

Post by stefanve »

The hours worked figure is misleading. in The Netherlands, Germany etc workforce participation rate of women are much higher. But because women tent to work mostly part-time, especially if they have kids, average the number is really low. Also a lot of young family's split this time as both parent's work part time to spend time with the kids. A normal work week is about 40 hours so if you take out 6 weeks for vacation days, sick days etc your left with 1840 hours. I think a more interesting number would be average work time per household I suspect that the list would look differently.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#57

Post by _k »

We're led to believe the solution to this economic crisis is either getting deeper in debt or more austerity measures (higher taxes, less subsidies) We're led to believe it's either A or B. It's neither A or B for most countries. The truth of the matter is that it's a political problem. We have to reduce the size of the government.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#58

Post by kamaal »

muyuu wrote: post #46
batista wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well BBC ran a show last night. And it did show the some reasons why Greece is such trouble today. It turns out people spent like crazy, far beyond their means. Things like electricians driving Porsche's and High End Mercedes cars. All of it imported from Germany. When a nation full of people with government included involves in such spending it is but other wise natural that they price for it later on. If BBC did ru…

Heh it cracked me up too. "Well BBC ran a show last night" therefore it must be true and I can now give you all my expert opinion in the matter. Private debt is much higher in the UK than in Greece, both in relative and in absolute terms. Public debt is probably second in line to Greece, it's a close race with Italy and maybe some smaller Eastern countries. I wonder if the BBC covered that last night.

Fine,

I never said borrowing was wrong. I said borrowing without having means to pay back is wrong. You almost make it look as though Greece did nothing wrong in borrowing, but now Germany and alike are committing a huge sin in not bailing them out.

UK, Italy and all those countries you mentioned might definitely have the same debt. But the situation there is different because those people have a way of paying their loans back.

I am not expert in economics but I know, spending more than earning(Or what you can earn) is not healthy for any economy.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#59

Post by TelmoMenezes »

I don't know about Greece, but I grew up in Portugal, and I suspect there are some similarities. People in Portugal "work" long hours. But they also work in a very infective way: long useless meetings, everything requires lengthy social interactions, bizantine bureaucracy, too many managers for too few real workers and so on. There are complex cultural problems that cannot be expressed by such simplistic metrics (and that, unfortunately, cannot be solved with quick fixes).

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#60

Post by arethuza »

megablast wrote: post #51
arethuza wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How do we prevent individuals from spending recklessly?" How about not bailing out banks that insist on making poor loans?

What does one have to do with the other? Bailing out banks does not happen so people can still keep spending recklessly, it comes from the belief that letting banks fail will cause major harm to the financial system.

"Financial bailouts of lending institutions by governments, central banks or other institutions can encourage risky lending in the future if those that take the risks come to believe that they will not have to carry the full burden of potential losses."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard

Post reply on HN