Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 152 posts

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#101

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Facts that reconcile this article with what we already know:

1. The Greek labour market is inefficient. That is why so many people work in small (inefficient) shops. Closed shop regulation for many professions lock people out of high wage occupations. Next to Portugal's 28% high school graduation rate [1] Greece's recent progress (2. Doing business is tough. Here is an anecdote from a financial commentator in Athens:

"My friend explained that the owner of the bookstore/café couldn’t get a license to provide coffee. She had tried to just buy a coffee machine and give the coffee away for free, thinking that lingering patrons would boost book sales.  However, giving away coffee was illegal as well. Instead, the owner had to strike a deal with a bar across the street, whereby they make the coffee and the waitress spends all day shuttling between the bar and the bookstore/café. My friend also explained to me that books could not be purchased at the bookstore, as it was after 18h and it is illegal to sell books in Greece beyond that hour. I was in a bookstore/café that could neither sell books nor make coffee." [3]

3. The government used cheap loans not for infrastructure or reform, but to pay public servants and build a military.

4. The government lied about its finances and is depravedly corrupt.

[1] http://m.upi.com/m/story/UPI-16361301069117/

[2] http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/21/48657344.pdf

[3] http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/36085/

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#102

Post by batista »

kamaal wrote: post #58
muyuu wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh it cracked me up too. "Well BBC ran a show last night" therefore it must be true and I can now give you all my expert opinion in the matter. Private debt is much higher in the UK than in Greece, both in relative and in absolute terms. Public debt is probably second in line to Greece, it's a close race with Italy and maybe some smaller Eastern countries. I wonder if the BBC covered that last night.

Fine, I never said borrowing was wrong. I said borrowing without having means to pay back is wrong. You almost make it look as though Greece did nothing wrong in borrowing, but now Germany and alike are committing a huge sin in not bailing them out. UK, Italy and all those countries you mentioned might definitely have the same debt. But the situation there is different because those people have a way of paying their…

>I never said borrowing was wrong. I said borrowing without having means to pay back is wrong. You almost make it look as though Greece did nothing wrong in borrowing, but now Germany and alike are committing a huge sin in not bailing them out.

Actually it's a long and convoluted history.

Do you know for example that when the newly independent state of Greece was established (after fighting for liberation from the Ottoman empire), Germany (the Bavarian state) appointed a king and cabinet of it's own there?

The new state, being very poor and having an immediate need for money to bootstrap itself (for the army, to build infrastructure, etc), got a series of loans from abroad with very ominous terms, worse than usury that they had to accept, because there where no other sources of income at that early state. The terms were like you get only 60% of the actual loan value and leave the rest 40% as insurance against not paying --but you have to repay everything plus interest. Even those loans were embezzled in large part by the bavarian cabinet (and Greeks connected to it), leaving like 10-20% of the actual loan to the state.

So, those were some of the starting steps of the new Greek state, 180 years before.

Now, in the WWII, Germany not only invaded Greece and destroyed it's infrastructure, but also took a loan (Germany FROM Greece), amounting to something like 1/5 of the current debt in today's money. When I say "took a loan", actually the appointed government of the occupying German forces gave them one, it's not like the Greek people approved it. Then, after the war, they refused to pay the recuperations...

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#103

Post by muyuu »

Uchikoma wrote: post #96
muyuu wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has massive part on it by enforcing such shockingly low borrowing rates across the Eurozone. It completely destroyed countries with immature Real Estate landscapes, countries used to high inflation rates that collectively shot themselves in the foot. Germany and France took no hostages when they were stagnating and failed to meet EU requirements. They gave absolutely no regard to these countries and now they…

As this pops up everywhere, could you please cite a source from e.g. a ECB protocol or otherwise how Germany "controls the rates" or "enforces shockingly low borrowing rates" in violation of the ECB charta? The ECB back then set rates in accordance with inflation, e.g. to keep it low. That's the charta of the ECB. When a high inflation country joins a construct that has a goal of keeping inflation low, then yes you h…

The rates always follow the needs of Germany and sometimes France. The rates are discretionary and set by the president of the ECB.

Borrowing in most countries with a "hot" Real Estate market was unstoppable. Only higher rates like they historically had could have controlled it. The dimension of the damage done by this policy is incalculable.

There was no compromise. If a middle-ground, 5-6% rate had been set, the cost would have been shared. Now we're like Japan, the UK and to some extent the US: way over-leveraged, and the problem is our asymmetry and the fact that we really don't believe in the Union. When push comes to shove we shift blame. In the US nobody talked about expelling California from the Union when it went kaput and their hole is of a much bigger dimension than that of Greece. Germans will never consider Greeks as equals, it's a fact, so we either enforce it or call it quits.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#105

Post by conformal »

working longer hours != working more or harder.

much of the financial problems in .gr (and .it) have occurred because many citizens do not declare the bulk of their income, then, lo and behold, there is insufficient tax revenue to pay for the myriad government services. there are more porsche cayennes in .gr than there are people who declared over EUR 50K income in 2010.

based on the fact that .gr has essentially committed long-term fraud with their financials i put absolutely zero stock in any claim that "they're working harder than germany".

sure, there are some greeks who work really hard and are productive, but if you've spent any decent amount of time in other countries that border the mediterranean sea you'll notice that their definition of "work" is very different from most people from a less pleasant climate.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#107

Post by dagw »

conformal wrote: post #105

working longer hours != working more or harder. much of the financial problems in .gr (and .it) have occurred because many citizens do not declare the bulk of their income, then, lo and behold, there is insufficient tax revenue to pay for the myriad government services. there are more porsche cayennes in .gr than there are people who declared over EUR 50K income in 2010. based on the fact that .gr has essentially com…

there are more porsche cayennes in .gr than there are people who declared over EUR 50K income in 2010

That 'fact' is not only completely untrue, but utterly ridiculous and off by several orders of magnitude. There where over 300000 people declaring of EUR 50k in income in 2010, while Porsche has sold 1500 Cayennes in Greece since launch.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#108

Post by vetler »

swah wrote: post #95
vetler wrote: post #71

Very interesting to see that Norway is the 2nd most productive, but ranks 3rd in fewest hours worked! Makes me feel good about leaving work at four. ;)

OTOH I rather have a flexible work schedule than a strict-but-short one ("you always have to get here at 8 and leave at 4").

Oh, we have that too. Just because I chose to get in at 8 this morning, doesn't mean I have to. YMMV, of course, but flexible hours are the norm in the IT industry.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#109

Post by vetler »

gizzlon wrote: post #81
vetler wrote: post #71

Very interesting to see that Norway is the 2nd most productive, but ranks 3rd in fewest hours worked! Makes me feel good about leaving work at four. ;)

But what is that number anyway? It's probably just GNP / people. ? Norway will look good in that respect due to the oil.

Doesn't say, unfortunately.

"They are collected by individual national statistics authorities who each have their own methods of collecting and collating information."

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#110

Post by josh33 »

anotherthrow wrote: post #50
arethuza wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How do we prevent individuals from spending recklessly?" How about not bailing out banks that insist on making poor loans?

That might be a start, but probably only if banks were suitably sized and regulated in the first place which wasn't the case this time. Better bank regulation / breaking up banks going forward seems more sensible.

You don't need to regulate banks if you prove to them you are not going to bail them out when they are too loose in their lending practices. They'll go out of business or tighten their lending standards. The real problem here is banks the world over have convinced their people and their governments that having debt-financed possessions is the key to happiness and prosperity.
Post reply on HN