The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German • Hacker News Board

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#41

Post by arethuza » Mon, May 14, 2012, 9:55 AM UTC

kqr2 wrote: post #38

lispm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of Greek electricians driving Porsche is not very high. Also the German exports to Greece are also not that big (from both sides). In reality Greece imports from all over the place. It also imports a lot of energy sources. It has a huge military with costly imports (parts from that also from Germany). Also the money does not come especially from Germany. If you look at the banks, they are from France, Ital…

Substitute electrician for farmer... From http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/9/49503 : Larisa, which has about 250,000 inhabitants, is the capital of the agricultural region of Thessaly in central Greece. Larissa “is the talk of the town in Stuttgart, the cradle of the German automobile industry, and, particularly, in the Porsche headquarters there”, since it “tops the list, world-wide, for the per-capita ownership of P…

An awful lot of these "facts" have been shown to wrong:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17702226

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#42

Post by arethuza » Mon, May 14, 2012, 9:57 AM UTC

anotherthrow wrote: post #34

kamaal wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that's the documentary, Its a nice one to watch. What I realized about the entire chapter of Greece was that you can't blame the government and corporations for all the problems in the world. Sometimes we as individuals need to step back and think of our own financial future. Reckless spending on our behalf without planning for the future are disastrous. Savings and investments are important for our future. And w…

Two points: 1. I wouldn't think for a second that Michael Portillo is a reasonable unbiased analyst here. 2. How do we prevent individuals from spending recklessly? Seems like government is going to have to play a large part in that story. On (2), it's not an issue of blame, and personally I'm not interested so much in who to 'blame' - we're doing economics, not philosophical ethics. Rather it's an issue about what w…

"How do we prevent individuals from spending recklessly?"

How about not bailing out banks that insist on making poor loans?

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#43

Post by batista » Mon, May 14, 2012, 9:58 AM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #4

Well BBC ran a show last night. And it did show the some reasons why Greece is such trouble today. It turns out people spent like crazy, far beyond their means. Things like electricians driving Porsche's and High End Mercedes cars. All of it imported from Germany. When a nation full of people with government included involves in such spending it is but other wise natural that they price for it later on. The anchor di…

Well BBC ran a show last night. And it did show the some reasons why Greece is such trouble today. It turns out people spent like crazy, far beyond their means. Things like electricians driving Porsche's and High End Mercedes cars. All of it imported from Germany. When a nation full of people with government included involves in such spending it is but other wise natural that they price for it later on.

If BBC did run such a show, then, as a Greek, I can tell you it was bollocks.

In fact, in you check the private (homes + enterprises) debt for Greece as compared to the GNP you will see that it is quite small, actually one of the smallest in the western Europe.

Plus, even for this private debt, the majority is in the form of housing loans (= to buy a house). So, no "electricians driving Porsches". Well, you could find one or two maybe. But I doubt you could find five of them.

Now, state spending is another story altogether.

I will get in more detail when I can.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#44

Post by tluyben2 » Mon, May 14, 2012, 10:00 AM UTC

beloch wrote: post #10

Greece could be the most productive country in the EU and their government would still be in dire straits. Tax evasion is endemic. It doesn't matter how much people are making if almost nobody is paying their taxes. The Greek government has started cracking down, but Greek disrespect for taxation has been building for generations and won't die easily.

Same in Spain. People look at you in disgust if you ask something about taxes; 'why would you do that?'. And if you desperately WANT to pay tax, they made it INCREDIBLY difficult. I thought the Netherlands was bureaucratic, but that's really child's play compared what you have to do in Spain (for practically anything official).

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#45

Post by [deleted] » Mon, May 14, 2012, 10:01 AM UTC

lispm wrote: post #25

kamaal wrote: post #4

Well BBC ran a show last night. And it did show the some reasons why Greece is such trouble today. It turns out people spent like crazy, far beyond their means. Things like electricians driving Porsche's and High End Mercedes cars. All of it imported from Germany. When a nation full of people with government included involves in such spending it is but other wise natural that they price for it later on. The anchor di…

The number of Greek electricians driving Porsche is not very high. Also the German exports to Greece are also not that big (from both sides). In reality Greece imports from all over the place. It also imports a lot of energy sources. It has a huge military with costly imports (parts from that also from Germany). Also the money does not come especially from Germany. If you look at the banks, they are from France, Ital…

[deleted]

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#46

Post by muyuu » Mon, May 14, 2012, 10:03 AM UTC

batista wrote: post #43

kamaal wrote: post #4

Well BBC ran a show last night. And it did show the some reasons why Greece is such trouble today. It turns out people spent like crazy, far beyond their means. Things like electricians driving Porsche's and High End Mercedes cars. All of it imported from Germany. When a nation full of people with government included involves in such spending it is but other wise natural that they price for it later on. The anchor di…

Well BBC ran a show last night. And it did show the some reasons why Greece is such trouble today. It turns out people spent like crazy, far beyond their means. Things like electricians driving Porsche's and High End Mercedes cars. All of it imported from Germany. When a nation full of people with government included involves in such spending it is but other wise natural that they price for it later on. If BBC did ru…

Heh it cracked me up too.

"Well BBC ran a show last night" therefore it must be true and I can now give you all my expert opinion in the matter.

Private debt is much higher in the UK than in Greece, both in relative and in absolute terms. Public debt is probably second in line to Greece, it's a close race with Italy and maybe some smaller Eastern countries. I wonder if the BBC covered that last night.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#47

Post by angry-hacker » Mon, May 14, 2012, 10:04 AM UTC

anton_c wrote: post #36

It's very easy to blame simple people for the mess that capitalism created. "They spent a lot". Really? Who's to say? Did you ever wonder how much is spend on high tech weapons by your government? Do you KNOW what YOUR country's public debt is? Are YOU responsible for it (because you're gonna be held accountable for it either way). As easy as it is to buy mainstream media "analysis" it's also just that - mainstream,…

Okay, but maybe your living of standard is "chinese wages". What I mean by that much lower standard of living. Why should other countries taxpayers because you don't want to accept the reality?

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#48

Post by tluyben2 » Mon, May 14, 2012, 10:04 AM UTC

cmdkeen wrote: post #14

john61 wrote: post #8

It does not matter how long you work. What matters is what you get done in a week.

This. The far more important column is the second one about Productivity. And Germany leads the way there with no mention for Greece. Working more hours to produce the same thing is bad, not good.

Leads the way? Belgium and the Netherlands are higher. In that table (where did they get those numbers) I would say Norway + Netherlands 'win'; least hours, most productive. For me as a programmer that's exactly how it should be.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#49

Post by zanny » Mon, May 14, 2012, 10:04 AM UTC

varjag wrote: post #40

zerostar07 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was (and mostly still is) so easy to avoid taxes in Greece that it's fair to say the burden is on the government more than the people. I believe it's difficult to make people tax-conscious when they see that it's so easy for everyone around them to steal. The tax authorities here are corrupt, underqualified, and have a very low rate of tax collection. It's so bad that it had better be replaced altogether.

Greece is a democracy. The government is representative of its people.

Is the US a democracy by the same standards?

Saying you have a democracy does not make it so, the actions of a government acting out the will of its people makes it so.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#50

Post by anotherthrow » Mon, May 14, 2012, 10:08 AM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #42

anotherthrow wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two points: 1. I wouldn't think for a second that Michael Portillo is a reasonable unbiased analyst here. 2. How do we prevent individuals from spending recklessly? Seems like government is going to have to play a large part in that story. On (2), it's not an issue of blame, and personally I'm not interested so much in who to 'blame' - we're doing economics, not philosophical ethics. Rather it's an issue about what w…

"How do we prevent individuals from spending recklessly?" How about not bailing out banks that insist on making poor loans?

That might be a start, but probably only if banks were suitably sized and regulated in the first place which wasn't the case this time. Better bank regulation / breaking up banks going forward seems more sensible.