Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 152 posts

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#21

Post by zerostar07 »

beloch wrote: post #10

Greece could be the most productive country in the EU and their government would still be in dire straits. Tax evasion is endemic. It doesn't matter how much people are making if almost nobody is paying their taxes. The Greek government has started cracking down, but Greek disrespect for taxation has been building for generations and won't die easily.

It was (and mostly still is) so easy to avoid taxes in Greece that it's fair to say the burden is on the government more than the people. I believe it's difficult to make people tax-conscious when they see that it's so easy for everyone around them to steal. The tax authorities here are corrupt, underqualified, and have a very low rate of tax collection. It's so bad that it had better be replaced altogether.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#22

Post by arethuza »

jussij wrote: post #16
arethuza wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Its almost like a third world country" If it looks like a third world country, then where did all the money go? Presumably the majority of people aren't driving around in Porsches?

> where did all the money go They spent the money. It's no difference to running up a big credit card debt, but at some point you have to pay it back. What went wrong for Greece was it maxed out it's government credit card and none of the banks would let them up their credit limit. Now the goverment doesn't have a lot of money comming in but it still has a massive debt. That debt has to be payed back or else they hav…

Well, for sake of argument, if it all went on buying Porsches and Mercedes then it's pretty easy to tell where the money went....

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#23

Post by Heliosmaster »

zerostar07 wrote: post #19

That number is (more than) a bit misleading. I don't know where OECD pulls those numbers but it certainly doesn't feel as if Greeks work more than the average european. Shops dont work on sundays, public services are open for only a few hours a day, banks close at 2 etc. Underproductivity is a major issue, most of the work of public services is unnecessary red tape that could be easily automated if the government was…

Are you sure? Because I find shops open from early morning till late night: from general goods to restaurants and so on.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#25

Post by lispm »

kamaal wrote: post #4

Well BBC ran a show last night. And it did show the some reasons why Greece is such trouble today. It turns out people spent like crazy, far beyond their means. Things like electricians driving Porsche's and High End Mercedes cars. All of it imported from Germany. When a nation full of people with government included involves in such spending it is but other wise natural that they price for it later on. The anchor di…

The number of Greek electricians driving Porsche is not very high. Also the German exports to Greece are also not that big (from both sides).

In reality Greece imports from all over the place. It also imports a lot of energy sources. It has a huge military with costly imports (parts from that also from Germany). Also the money does not come especially from Germany. If you look at the banks, they are from France, Italy, Germany, US, etc.

Avoiding paying tax is a sport - especially for some of the very rich families in Greece.

There are several other reasons.

There are a lot of people in Greece who work hard and a lot of people who don't work that hard. There is a huge and relatively unproductive government sector for example.

How many hours people work is really not that important. In Germany people may work fewer hours, but the work is much more focused. After the necessary working hours many workers actually go home. In many other countries workers spend more time at to workplace without being productive. Also there are large parts of the industry which have lots of robots. For example in car manufacturing you find 10000+ robots working. You would find that level of automation only in a few places on this planet. Not so much in Greece.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#26

Post by kristofferR »

john61 wrote: post #8

It does not matter how long you work. What matters is what you get done in a week.

Yeah, there may actually be an inverse correlation between the length of work and productivity. It seems that way according to the chart at least.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#27

Post by bad_user »

diminish wrote: post #18
smcl wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's why these stats are interesting. There seems to be a stereotype of lazy Greeks being bailed out by hard-working Germans. These OECD stats (which I originally checked out after an episode of Radio Open Source featuring economist Mark Blyth) show that this is just another example of an ugly, incorrect stereotype.

I agree; let us not forget that due to EU, Greeks got looser borrowing from banks, and they bought German products. Last time I was in Romania for a business trip, I saw a similar picture. Goods flow from Western Europe to Romania together with easy credit. That spoils people quickly.

I live in Romania and the picture ain't at all similar.

Surely you can spot luxury cars on our streets. But in general I haven't seen those cars purchased by people that can't afford it. Also, many luxury cars that you see have been purchased from second-hand dealers from other countries for cheap. And let me assure you that most luxury cars you see in Romania (and you can spot many of them) are bought by people that can afford to pay cash ;-)

I do worry about loans for purchasing homes.

In our country it is much better to own your apartment than to rent it, especially in the big cities, where rents are equal to how much you'd pay for the monthly loan payments. Landlords also make it difficult to rent an apartment for a long time. But young people these days do not make enough money to ever have a chance of purchasing their own property, without getting loans from banks. And as long as the system does not collapse, it is better for them.

This is not the same thing as buying luxury cars. And if this system collapses, only the banks should take the blame for passing loans to people that can't pay their debt on the long term.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#28

Post by kamaal »

arethuza wrote: post #22
jussij wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where did all the money go They spent the money. It's no difference to running up a big credit card debt, but at some point you have to pay it back. What went wrong for Greece was it maxed out it's government credit card and none of the banks would let them up their credit limit. Now the goverment doesn't have a lot of money comming in but it still has a massive debt. That debt has to be payed back or else they hav…

Well, for sake of argument, if it all went on buying Porsches and Mercedes then it's pretty easy to tell where the money went....

Right,

It went to Germany. But you can't hold them responsible for this mess. Germany is a export based country, they are also more productive than the Greeks. They have managed their money well.

The only thing is that the Euro facilitated such things more easily.

But Germany can't be blamed for it. Imagine you go to a supermarket and buy like crazy. You know you don't have a way of paying it back, but you keep buying. Soon you run out of your credit limit of buying more. Soon you are in a situation where you owe the bank a lot of money and have no money of retuning it back.

Who is to be blamed, can you blame the supermarket for selling stuff? Or the bank for lending you money? Or you for not knowing when to stop?

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#29

Post by zerostar07 »

Heliosmaster wrote: post #23
zerostar07 wrote: post #19

That number is (more than) a bit misleading. I don't know where OECD pulls those numbers but it certainly doesn't feel as if Greeks work more than the average european. Shops dont work on sundays, public services are open for only a few hours a day, banks close at 2 etc. Underproductivity is a major issue, most of the work of public services is unnecessary red tape that could be easily automated if the government was…

Are you sure? Because I find shops open from early morning till late night: from general goods to restaurants and so on.

What about everything else? Are gas stations open on sundays? Pharmacies in the afternoon? Are government offices open after 13:00?

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#30

Post by zerostar07 »

arethuza wrote: post #6
kamaal wrote: post #4

Well BBC ran a show last night. And it did show the some reasons why Greece is such trouble today. It turns out people spent like crazy, far beyond their means. Things like electricians driving Porsche's and High End Mercedes cars. All of it imported from Germany. When a nation full of people with government included involves in such spending it is but other wise natural that they price for it later on. The anchor di…

"Its almost like a third world country" If it looks like a third world country, then where did all the money go? Presumably the majority of people aren't driving around in Porsches?

It's definitely not a third world country. Despite the crisis, greeks still have good free healthcare and education and crime is still low. Don't know for how long though.

The thing with the Porsches is a hyperbole, but it's also true that Greeks have become avid spenders in the past decade. There is this Nielsen report that showed that in 2008 Greece was number 1(!) in (designer) brand awareness worldwide: http://pl.nielsen.com/site/documents/ConsumersandDesignerBra... . Not a healthy sign for a country that produces almost none of those expensive products.

Most of this money went to vitalize local markets that had no future, such as construction (building very expensive houses in a country that already has one of the highest home-ownership rates in europe), food/entertainment and retail. Very little was spent on investing, mainly because tight regulations make it hard to take business risks.

Post reply on HN