Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question • Hacker News Board

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#111

Post by duxup » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 2:52 PM UTC

racingmars wrote: post #57

duxup wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"DOCUMENTATION ..........................................ON BOARD" Wait... isn't that what you'd be reading right there? Or is the documentation and checklist not the same thing?

The checklist is what you'd be reading, usually a laminated one-page card kept in a convenient spot. The documentation that the checklist refers to is the full "user manual" for the plane, with things like the quick reference handbook (QRH) that includes the step-by-step procedures covering what to do for every single warning light, emergency condition, etc. Also "documentation" here could also cover the mandatory th…

Ah thank you!

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#112

Post by gumby » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 3:26 PM UTC

stephengillie wrote: post #32

gumby wrote: post #15

> "Mr. Russell...had worked his shift on Friday." So glad they told us this important fact. I wonder if his final direct deposit (to his estate) will include that days' pay or if it will count as a vacation day? Has the news always been this inane?

The paycheck might goto restitution.

That's an interesting point, raising a couple of interesting issues!

No lives were lost (apart from the thief's) but the company is out a plane and the taxpayers are out some fuel. I know embezzlers are often required to make restitution, but I've always assumed that this was for rehabilitative purposes. Presumably companies have insurance (maybe embezzlement restitution goes to the insurance company?) and the taxpayer, well, that's what we're paying for.

A second interesting question is the innocent family members who presumably have depended on the income from the thief. Clearly the last (partial?) paycheck won't be material either way, but who would be "punished" and whom "provided restitution" in this case?

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#113

Post by Turing_Machine » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 3:40 PM UTC

mistersquid wrote: post #47

Two things really caught me about this story besides the security implication. First, the skill Russell deployed from (only?) having used a PC flight simulator surprised me. If Russell in fact never had any flight experience outside a simulator, well, I'm just stunned at what he was capable of doing. (Linked in article, here for convenience.) [0] Second, and more importantly, Russell's demise is tragic, pure and simp…

Russell grew up in Alaska. More people there than might be commonly imagined have experience flying (small) planes from an early age without licenses or formal lessons. I don't know that this was the case with him, but I would not be at all surprised.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#114

Post by gumby » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 3:43 PM UTC

saagarjha wrote: post #61

adjagu wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sentence did stick out to me too. As abrupt and lacking further information as it was it did serve to notify us as to how he was able to be on the tarmac and gain access to the airplane. I do feel that the author could have expanded that thought a bit more.

I think helped show how sudden this change was. One day, he's working his normal job, another he's stealing a plane and crashing it into an island.

But you could just as well read it another way: the pressure built up and eventually he snapped, or he was just waiting for an opportunity and finally one presented itself, or he was just spontaneously overcome (not that we'll likely ever know).

That's what I meant by the inanity: it's just a random trivial fact jammed in there without context nor explanation of why it should be relevant. Writing a story is selecting the relevant facts and dropping the rest: if there was a bank robbery I wouldn't expect to see "the robber wore a blue baseball hat" unless it were explained why it was worth mentioning.

It could of course be poor editing, but it reminds me more of one of those high school essays where you just jam a few extra things in there to get the word count up. Admittedly, this isn't the most important article in the world and could easily have been assigned to a junior reporter -- and reporters write a lot so I don't mean to harsh on this one.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#115

Post by guessthejuice » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

noja wrote: post #88

This is something we handle really, really badly. One bad thing happens one time (like a failed shoe bomb), and so everybody forever-more has to be permanently inconvenienced every day. Whatever the response to this incident is, I hope (and doubt) that it will also balance the CHANCE of this happening against the huge cost and inconvenience of making it "impossible" to ever happen again. We all know that 100% and "im…

> This is something we handle really, really badly.

We handle it bad because the news scaremongers with hyperbolic exaggerations. The people get overly anxious and of course politicians rush to the worst possible "solutions".

I remember a while back there was hysteria over pilots not being screened. Then people found out that a pilot doesn't need weapons to take down a plane and screening pilots doesn't make sense. Common sense.

If everyone would just calm down and think things through, we'd come to more sensible solutions. And much of the time, the sensible solution is to do nothing. Bad things happen. Just the way life is. So we should weigh the options calmly and sensibly, not hysterically.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#116

Post by acct1771 » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #109

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airline engineering employees need to power on planes, fire up various systems to test, and even move them around. It's absolutely routine. All the reports I've seen seem to suggest that this was one of those employees. So it seems reasonable to assume that he would have had the PIN or "key" or whatever in this case anyway.

valet mode for aircraft. of course we can never eliminate the risk but perhaps a two key mode similar to launch controls for missiles to do anything with a plane other than low power movement?

You put so much (undeserved) faith in the missile launching crowd...000000 comes to mind.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#117

Post by c22 » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 4:21 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #36

JanSolo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listen to the recording of ATC personnel talking to the rogue pilot. He's just a normal guy with a few screws loose. I think they correctly assessed this man to be non-threatening to ground targets. Now, if the guy was non-responsive or erratic or started making threats, I do expect that the F15s might have been used.

Do you trust your hijackers to announce their intention to run into a building? In fact if a 9/11 ever happens again, the hijackers will have a pretty hard job convincing the passengers this is not a suicide mission and they shouldn't rebel. I always thought that is what prevented another 9/11, not confiscating baby milk at airport security checks.

For what it's worth, I've been through airport security with bottled breast milk a few times and they have never confiscated it, they just run it through the mass spectrometer.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#118

Post by prolikewh0a » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 4:24 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #13

abhiminator wrote: post #3

> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [0] didn't engage and bring the plane down before the individual commandeering the prop -- Mr. Russell -- brought the aircraft down with himself in the Ketron Island. IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down, and I can imagine…

If you have a choice between knowingly killing a man (and perhaps several people on the gound) and waiting for him to likely crash on his own but possibly land the plane with no injuries, why would you choose the former? You can always fire on him later if it looks like he's going to be a danger to large populated areas, but if you fire on him now you know you're going to be a danger. Both TFA and your link indicate…

He decided to fly around Mt. Ranier and then decided to head over to the Cascades to take in the beauty and "have a moment of serenity". ATC had no control, but tried to keep him within radio distance by telling him to turn away from the cascades.

The full ~1hr of ATC audio supports this.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#119

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 5:00 PM UTC

mistersquid wrote: post #47

Two things really caught me about this story besides the security implication. First, the skill Russell deployed from (only?) having used a PC flight simulator surprised me. If Russell in fact never had any flight experience outside a simulator, well, I'm just stunned at what he was capable of doing. (Linked in article, here for convenience.) [0] Second, and more importantly, Russell's demise is tragic, pure and simp…

[deleted]

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#120

Post by salawat » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

It seems to me to be a continuation of the pattern of labor 'Going Postal' in the labor hostile environment that has emerged since Reagan.

This should be a wake-up call to everyone in the country. We can't survive without being able to trust and respect each other as human beings. Part of that is recognizing that even the most humble occupations deserve a fair wage and chance at advancement in life.

If we can't respect the people who put in 8 hour days on our behalf and fulfill our obligations to them as responsible business owners/organizers, we are doomed to see repeats of this type of tragedy.

People seek purpose, and many are content to do even the more "mundane" jobs so long as the compensation is fair. Too many places seek to be successful on Wall Street's terms rather than in providing a service to their community.

I'm sure an MBA will surface and tell me I'm wrong, but I've not encountered a workplace that didn't marginalize their workers and generated a tragedy of the likes that has become a hallmark of the last 50 years.

God Speed, Russell. May your death have not been in vain.

[0]Going Postal: Rage, Murder, and Rebellion in America, Mark Ames