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Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

nytimes.com

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Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#101

Post by donaltroddyn »

cncrnd wrote: post #71
aaronmck wrote: post #62

The article title seems like an overreaction to a really sad situation. We have to trust at least someone, and although he clearly had some issues (maybe recent), he wasn't out to hurt anyone or aligned with any groups that wanted to inflict harm. Fighter jets were there immediately, people tried to talk him down, and he was lost. Nothing better could have been done all around. Yes, commercial planes could be keycode…

Hmm I don't think it's that much of a headache to have some PIN code provided to pilots as an additional measure. These planes aren't cheap, even a small personal jet is in the low millions. A Boeing 747 or similar is in the hundreds of millions.

Whatever system that you put in place would have to never (or very close to never) have a false negative during normal aircraft operation.

One other commenter here mentions a simple ignition key would have prevented this incident, but there's been at least one major ignition system flaw in cars that caused multiple deaths ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch... ), and the consequences of a failure causing loss of control to a passenger aircraft far outweighs that in a car.

Given the very low rate of unauthorised takeoffs of passenger aircraft, and that this case was an insider who may have been able to gain access to keys/codes anyway, is introducing introducing a new system to aircraft justified?

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#102

Post by h4b4n3r0 »

pjc50 wrote: post #97
h4b4n3r0 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, require that only pilots have access to the key then.

.. which they will promptly hand over to the engineers for maintenance purposes, just as people do with their car keys.

Create a “valet key” which lets the engineer to do what he/she needs to do but doesn’t allow to take off.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#103

Post by dingaling »

rl3 wrote: post #37
Rotdhizon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And to think, even if they decided to take him down, it would have likely been over a populated area. Unless they disintegrated it with missiles while in the sky, it likely would have ended in a catastrophe. The decision to not take the plan out as soon as they had the chance to safely was interesting. Their lack of action could have resulted in the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of people. Interestingly enough…

> Who else can ever say they did a freaking barrel roll in a commercial airliner. Tex Johnston for one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaA7kPfC5Hk

That wasn't a barrel roll. Even Tex didn't really know what to call it. Sort of a floating aileron roll.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#104

Post by noja »

speedplane wrote: post #90
noja wrote: post #88

This is something we handle really, really badly. One bad thing happens one time (like a failed shoe bomb), and so everybody forever-more has to be permanently inconvenienced every day. Whatever the response to this incident is, I hope (and doubt) that it will also balance the CHANCE of this happening against the huge cost and inconvenience of making it "impossible" to ever happen again. We all know that 100% and "im…

I've always wondered about the true value of "for show" security measures. Requiring millions of passengers to spend 5 minutes more going through security to undergo procedures that wouldn't stop a determined terrorist definitely seems like a huge waste. However, if the government didn't do "something", it's pretty likely that trust in the US air transportation system would shrink. Wouldn't crush it, but maybe 3 of 1…

Sure, but it's also dishonest. It only happens and works because there is no honest conversation between the money spender (the government) and the voters.

Wasting money and theater is a tax on the 97% who still would have flown.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#105

Post by beamatronic »

lx3459683 wrote: post #11
abhiminator wrote: post #3

> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [0] didn't engage and bring the plane down before the individual commandeering the prop -- Mr. Russell -- brought the aircraft down with himself in the Ketron Island. IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down, and I can imagine…

> I can imagine a thousand horrifically different ways this could have turned out Like what? It's a small prop plane with a tiny amount of fuel and mass. Stealing a truck is considerably easier and can be used to do considerably more damage. This 'hurr so scary we need to act' line of reasoning is why people have traded all their freedoms away in exchange for illusionary protection. The attack surface from a maliciou…

I keep thinking about how many poor folks died from salad this year.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#106

Post by thunfischbrot »

speedplane wrote: post #90
noja wrote: post #88

This is something we handle really, really badly. One bad thing happens one time (like a failed shoe bomb), and so everybody forever-more has to be permanently inconvenienced every day. Whatever the response to this incident is, I hope (and doubt) that it will also balance the CHANCE of this happening against the huge cost and inconvenience of making it "impossible" to ever happen again. We all know that 100% and "im…

I've always wondered about the true value of "for show" security measures. Requiring millions of passengers to spend 5 minutes more going through security to undergo procedures that wouldn't stop a determined terrorist definitely seems like a huge waste. However, if the government didn't do "something", it's pretty likely that trust in the US air transportation system would shrink. Wouldn't crush it, but maybe 3 of 1…

The opposite effect happens as well: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/excess_automo...

> The inconvenience of extra passenger screening and added costs at airports after 9/11 cause many short-haul passengers to drive to their destination instead, and, since airline travel is far safer than car travel, this has led to an increase of 500 U.S. traffic fatalities per year. Using DHS-mandated value of statistical life at $6.5 million, this equates to a loss of $3.2 billion per year, or $32 billion over the period 2002 to 2011 (Blalock et al. 2007).

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#107

Post by darkhorn »

close04 wrote: post #100
chrisper wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have put many hours in flight simulators (the ones you can install on your own PC). One day I decided to take a real flying lesson. It was almost the same as in the simulator. Obviously the controls are a bit different because of different feedback, but you get used to it quickly. I think what helps a lot is that there are so many very detailed plane packages out there you can buy for the simulators. Too bad the co…

There's one thing that really bugs me: why is everyone so surprised that an airport worker who was familiar with the planes managed to take off? The reason this bugs me is that the 9/11 investigation concluded that multiple people with 0 flight experience can be taught to accurately steer a large commercial jet after just a short time training on small aircraft. In this frame of reference managing to take of in a sma…

9/11 is not a good example. http://arabesque911.blogspot.com/2007/07/pentagon-flight-pat...

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#108

Post by colejohnson66 »

justboxing wrote: post #60
fipple wrote: post #49

There is of course a lot sad about this story but something joyful as well. Many people commit suicide without such a final moment of exhilaration.

> Many people commit suicide without such a final moment of exhilaration. ...and without costing tax payers (F-15 fighter jets scrambling) and private companies (the airlines that owned the crashed plane) millions of dollars, causing stress and anxiety to people boarding other flights at Seattle airport and the subsequent delays to everyone else.

You’ve clearly never been suicidal. When you are, you don’t care about anything; not even yourself. Also, nothing scares you. So when you finally kill yourself, pain to yourself and others are the least of your worries.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#109

Post by Shivetya »

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #93
cncrnd wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm I don't think it's that much of a headache to have some PIN code provided to pilots as an additional measure. These planes aren't cheap, even a small personal jet is in the low millions. A Boeing 747 or similar is in the hundreds of millions.

Airline engineering employees need to power on planes, fire up various systems to test, and even move them around. It's absolutely routine. All the reports I've seen seem to suggest that this was one of those employees. So it seems reasonable to assume that he would have had the PIN or "key" or whatever in this case anyway.

valet mode for aircraft. of course we can never eliminate the risk but perhaps a two key mode similar to launch controls for missiles to do anything with a plane other than low power movement?

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#110

Post by prolikewh0a »

mistersquid wrote: post #47

Two things really caught me about this story besides the security implication. First, the skill Russell deployed from (only?) having used a PC flight simulator surprised me. If Russell in fact never had any flight experience outside a simulator, well, I'm just stunned at what he was capable of doing. (Linked in article, here for convenience.) [0] Second, and more importantly, Russell's demise is tragic, pure and simp…

>First, the skill Russell deployed from (only?) having used a PC flight simulator surprised me. If Russell in fact never had any flight experience outside a simulator, well, I'm just stunned at what he was capable of doing. (Linked in article, here for convenience.) [0]

Taking off and simply flying around are the easy parts. Playing a couple hundred hours of simulators would get you a nice feel for hand flying, especially if you had a PC yoke and rudder pedals. You could download a good plane model and know where absolutely everything is in the cockpit as well.

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