Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support • Hacker News Board

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#91

Post by callahad » Tue, May 12, 2015, 10:28 PM UTC

eps wrote: post #39

Karunamon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*most find offensive. It is possible for someone to be a brilliant technologist and an otherwise awful person. And before someone takes me to task for the words "awful person" - sorry, that's my evaluation of someone who'd rather lose their job than say sorry for the prejudice.

*some. Being vocal/hysterical about something doesn't imply it's a dominant opinion.

According to the Pew Research Center's polling, most Americans are in favor of marriage equality, and have been since 2011: http://www.pewforum.org/2014/09/24/graphics-slideshow-changi...

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#92

Post by jarrettc » Tue, May 12, 2015, 10:30 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #45

dabockster wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right on it. Most users use the things they do because they're either easy or there is no other feasible choice. Will a user download a plugin when a browser can now "guarantee" most forms of content to play without one? I know I probably wouldn't. Adobe just became an unwritten standard... again.

That's the annoying part, right? Surely there was, at least, some kind of open-source alternative for getting/fetching/caching these keys? Or does it truly rely on blackbox obfuscation?

> Or does it truly rely on blackbox obfuscation?

The client ultimately has to decrypt the data somehow. So the key is there on the client. I take it obfuscation is the only thing standing between the user and that key. Am I correct about that?

Which makes me wonder: How much security does HTML5 DRM really provide? Security through obscurity is a very weak defense, and one that is almost invariable defeated sooner or later. Will this really prove a hindrance to piracy in the long run?

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#93

Post by jordanlev » Tue, May 12, 2015, 10:30 PM UTC

DCKing wrote: post #37

mike-cardwell wrote: post #18

And here is the end result of people leaving Firefox for Chrome. You neutered Mozilla. There is no longer a browser vendor which has both your interests in heart and sufficient power to direct the evolution of the web. Who now gets to choose which features are built into the majority of desktop and mobile browsers? Advertising companies.

Come on. This is the same Mozilla that promoted installing Adobe Flash for internet video since its very inception. If you're really such a purist, they should have been your enemy all along. Nothing has changed, and the conclusion is nowhere near as dramatic as you're making it sound. The suggestion that Mozilla implemented this for market share reasons is also incredibly unsubstantiated and ignores the very obvious…

I don't think the parent's point was about purity of not having DRM in firefox, but rather that since Firefox's user base has decreased so much in recent years, Mozilla no longer has the leverage they used to in terms of browser features. In other words, if Firefox had 50% share of browser usage, they would be in a position to prevent EME from becoming an industry standard -- but since they have a much lower percentage (10% I think if you take mobile into account), they felt forced by pragmatism to include it.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#94

Post by pdkl95 » Tue, May 12, 2015, 10:31 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #10

jordigh wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I am sure the situation is more subtle than reported, I am reminded of this old ELER: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/taking-freedom-furth... "What better way to justify the proprietary bits of [Firefox] than a practically stooge [browser] to point at whenever we're questioned!" All this has happened before. All this will happen again.

"We see DRM in general as profoundly hostile to all three of: users, open source software, and browser vendors who aren’t also DRM vendors." https://brendaneich.com/2013/10/the-bridge-of-khazad-drm/ "We very much want to see a different system. Unfortunately, Mozilla alone cannot change the industry on DRM at this point. In the past Firefox has changed the industry, and we intend to do so again. Today, however, we ca…

This is Firefox giving up without even attempting a fight.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#95

Post by icebraining » Tue, May 12, 2015, 10:32 PM UTC

DCKing wrote: post #37

mike-cardwell wrote: post #18

And here is the end result of people leaving Firefox for Chrome. You neutered Mozilla. There is no longer a browser vendor which has both your interests in heart and sufficient power to direct the evolution of the web. Who now gets to choose which features are built into the majority of desktop and mobile browsers? Advertising companies.

Come on. This is the same Mozilla that promoted installing Adobe Flash for internet video since its very inception. If you're really such a purist, they should have been your enemy all along. Nothing has changed, and the conclusion is nowhere near as dramatic as you're making it sound. The suggestion that Mozilla implemented this for market share reasons is also incredibly unsubstantiated and ignores the very obvious…

I don't disagree that Mozilla was never a purist organization, but I think the suggestion is well substantiated. From the post announcing it:

"With most competing browsers and the content industry embracing the W3C EME specification, Mozilla has little choice but to implement EME as well so our users can continue to access all content they want to enjoy. (…) We have come to the point where Mozilla not implementing the W3C EME specification means that Firefox users have to switch to other browsers to watch content restricted by DRM."

https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/05/reconciling-mozillas-missi...

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#96

Post by PhantomGremlin » Tue, May 12, 2015, 10:36 PM UTC

jamespo wrote: post #64

therealfoxy wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep - when they asked why the online service that they bought DRM ridden content from closed, and now their purchases were lost (they were asking what to do/how to do it).

What service was that?

There have been a plethora of these. I don't remember much because I'd NEVER pay for DRMed media that I wasn't sure I couldn't get around. E.g. DVD is OK since there are plenty of rippers.

Here are a few cases I recall:

Microsoft screwed a bunch of people with PlaysForSure. Even the brown bar of turd wouldn't play it:

   The Zune and PlaysForSure music are both
   Certified for Windows Vista, yet the Zune
   cannot play PlaysForSure music purchased
   from the MSN Music Store[1]

MLB did the same thing:

   Some hardcore baseball fans have been left
   stranded on third base by Major League Baseball
   after it decided to change DRM systems. As a
   result, game footage purchased under the old
   DRM scheme are no longer viewable, leaving fans
   with unwatchable footage—and no refunds.[2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plays_for_sure [2] http://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2007/11/major-league-ba...

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#97

Post by Karunamon » Tue, May 12, 2015, 10:42 PM UTC

hoopd wrote: post #84

Karunamon wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you foresee a negotiation with someone's core values progressing? There's a fundamental incompatibility there, not just something that can be talked and reasoned around. You personally, the guy typing the letters into this box, what do you think the outcome of such a "negotiation" would be if it were as successful as humanly possible? At the end of the day, Mozilla's entire mission statement is contrary to Eic…

There's nothing in Mozilla's mission statement[0][1] incompatible with Eich's personal beliefs. > You personally, the guy typing the letters into this box, what do you think the outcome of such a "negotiation" would be if it were as successful as humanly possible? I think it would have been adults acting like adults and accepting you don't have to agree with somebody in order to work with them. Eich already demonstra…

The question here is not "Did Eich's presence cause an exclusionary atmosphere at Mozilla?", which is what you appear to be arguing. As you mention, the answer is no.

The question is actually "Is it appropriate for someone who takes active steps to treat some people as undeserving of basic rights[1] to take the ultimate leadership role in a diversity focused company?"

That answer is no.

Going back to your "negotiation" statement - he was given that option! The pichforks didn't truly come out until the number of his non-answers on the issue. Someone saying "we support diversity" doesn't sound right when that can be instantly rebutted with "Then why is your company run by someone who donated against LGBTs?"

It looks bad for Mozilla, and there's no good answer for that question - really!

Eich had three valid options from that point on:

* He could repudiate the donation and this would have evaporated overnight. Those views were apparently important enough to him to prevent such an option.

* He could not do so and stay, and Mozilla would suffer due to the volume of people who stated they would not work for or with someone who did what he did.

Two things to keep in mind: People are/were angry at Eich for his actions, not his thoughts. His thoughts are not conclusively knowable, his actions are.

Also remember that Prop 8 passed, and it took another 6 years for equal marriage rights to clear in California as a result - were I living in California during that time, I'd have felt pretty scandalized too, moreso if I were actually working for Mozilla at the time.

* He could not do so and move on. This was the chosen option.

[1]: http://www.afer.org/blog/14-supreme-court-cases-marriage-is-...

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#98

Post by prg318 » Tue, May 12, 2015, 10:44 PM UTC

serge2k wrote: post #66

enknamel wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think that but chrome is much more insidious than other browsers. I can log in to chrome on all my devices and share bookmarks, apps, sessions, passwords, etc. That makes me a sticky chrome user because I lose all that functionality if I ever switch.

Firefox doesn't do that for you?

Firefox absolutely does that for you [1]. You can even run your own sync server if you are into that sort of thing [2]. Works on all desktop platforms and mobile platforms that firefox runs on.

[1] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/sync/

[2] https://docs.services.mozilla.com/howtos/run-sync-1.5.html

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#99

Post by pasbesoin » Tue, May 12, 2015, 10:45 PM UTC

Aside from everything else (NOT that I am happy with the context), I am simply disgusted that Adobe is being "rewarded" with a role in this.

Not just their ongoing security fiasco, but also having had to deal with their tremendously incompetent technical support, have left me permanently opposed to their company.

Yes, the design allows for an arbitrary party -- I guess, although ties to / use of TPM and whatever mean that, in practice, there will be a much smaller field of... "mainstream" providers. In practice, though, meet the new evil, same as the old evil.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#100

Post by DanBC » Tue, May 12, 2015, 10:46 PM UTC

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #22

angersock wrote: post #19

Yeah, but at least we managed to get that hateful bigot out of the company! That's important, right? More seriously, we really do have a problem, but it looks like the users just don't want to be free.

but it looks like the users just don't want to be free. The users don't care. I have never been able to convince a layperson why DRM should matter at all to them, have you?.

"That DVD you bought? The one from a different region? It won't play and the reason it won't play is because of DRM. You think you can just put it in your laptop and use VLC, but you forget that your laptop DVD drive is probably region-locked in firmware, so although yes VLC ignores region coding the drive doesn't, and will enforce the region coding and refuse to play your DVD. I can fix it for you. Here's the list of stuff we need to do:

1) Find out the drive name and model number. 2) Find and download a firmware file for that drive. 3) Patch the firmware to turn it either into RPC1 or into auto-restarting RPC2. 4) Flash the file. 5) Carefully never ever use certain software and always cancel out of certain dialog boxes.

All this just because rights-holders want to stop you buying a new DVD from outside your region."