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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#131

Post by monkeyshelli »

MCRed wrote: post #120
tajen wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> white in my beard What about tinting ("dieing?" sorry for not knowing the word in English) your hair? It's superficial, but if it lands a job, it's fair.

Thought about that, but found a situation before trying it. I think I will do that next time... which is kinda sad, cause really, my experience makes me really valuable.

But in the end, would you really want to go work for a shop like that? If they don't want you based on the color of your beard, then I wonder what "other" surprises lurk around the corner..

I'm in my mid-thirties, so please take that into an account. Also I know that these are the questions that I have to ponder in the coming years, so your insights are highly valued.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#132

Post by misteredison12 »

siberianbear wrote: post #108
Afforess wrote: post #47

I see no one else has mentioned another, even more obvious solution. Retire . With the sky-high salaries it is possible to earn as a software engineer, it should be straightforward (not easy, but still straightforward nonetheless), to save enough to retire at the age of 40. After which, you can spend your remaining time as you see fit, working on personal projects or any other hobby that suits your fancy. This is the…

It's possible. I did it. I am 43 and I retired when I was 40. I lived frugally in Silicon Valley and saved and consistently invested more than half of my income. It was a decision I made when I was 23. I remember doing a spreadsheet at that time to plan it all out. This was back before there were good references on how to plan it out. Some of my assumptions were a bit off, but I got there in the end.

Can you give more details on your story? I'm particularly interested in how much you needed to retire, and how you've set everything up to make yourself comfortable that you won't run out of money.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#134

Post by lemming »

danieltillett wrote: post #20
bikamonki wrote: post #2

More options: - Go solo. At 40 you should be experienced enough to handle up to mid-sized projects, alone and on a reasonable time-frame. Try to pick projects that your clients will actually use, with new features and support contracts you will have steady income for the long-term. - Go startup. Stop thinking you need to come up with the next über-for-x. There are plenty of opportunities for small sass shops that cat…

The problem with age is you become less flexible. If your have a business where you know what you will be doing in 6 months time then experience is great - when your plans change weekly then the flexibility of youth is what you want.

Once you're old enough, you'll realise that if your plans change weekly you're in serious trouble.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#135

Post by mibbitirc »

blazespin wrote: post #85
derrekl wrote: post #69

I don't know a single software dev over 40 who isn't employed, and I know many that age. None of them had to change fields. Some are managers, but most are "senior" devs. Many of these guys have been programming internet technologies since the later 90's. It seems in the places I've lived (LA, DC) the salaries are pretty squashed together after 5 years experience. Basically anyone with that experience is getting a si…

A big problem was that most bright engineers were promoted into management, so the ones left programming at 40 weren't so bright. So not so much that age killed the skills, it's just a selection bias. I think we've got better at that and bright engineers are just being promoted into senior engineers, so hopefully it's fixing the selection bias.

IMHO It's more usually bad developers who get promoted into management, so they can do less damage.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#136

Post by kephra »

I sometimes think, that the reason for this age discrimination was the switch from female to male coders in the early 80s. It was that sudden break, that introduced the computer kid as a replacement of the former cheap female workforce, and made the highly payed former system architect obsolete, as nobody had a use for a programmer anymore, who needs a secretary for typing, in the modern time of personal computers. Some of them moved to management, just renaming their job position.

So the gender discrimination of cheap female coder vs expensive male system architect switched into an age discrimination between cheap young coders, and expensive managers.

We lost both the skilled and the female coders in this way.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#137

Post by danmaz74 »

monkeyshelli wrote: post #131
MCRed wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thought about that, but found a situation before trying it. I think I will do that next time... which is kinda sad, cause really, my experience makes me really valuable.

But in the end, would you really want to go work for a shop like that? If they don't want you based on the color of your beard, then I wonder what "other" surprises lurk around the corner.. I'm in my mid-thirties, so please take that into an account. Also I know that these are the questions that I have to ponder in the coming years, so your insights are highly valued.

Very often these biases work at an unconscious level in people who are otherwise perfectly fine. Don't discount this effect.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#138

Post by siberianbear »

misteredison12 wrote: post #132
siberianbear wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible. I did it. I am 43 and I retired when I was 40. I lived frugally in Silicon Valley and saved and consistently invested more than half of my income. It was a decision I made when I was 23. I remember doing a spreadsheet at that time to plan it all out. This was back before there were good references on how to plan it out. Some of my assumptions were a bit off, but I got there in the end.

Can you give more details on your story? I'm particularly interested in how much you needed to retire, and how you've set everything up to make yourself comfortable that you won't run out of money.

This subject has been researched in great detail. There's lots of great information all over the Internet. I recommend these two blogs if you want to learn more:

http://earlyretirementextreme.com/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/

The TL;DR is this: you need to be able to live off about 3.5% of your portfolio for one year. That will allow you to avoid depleting your principal over a very long term, and also give yourself an inflation-adjusted raise every year so you maintain your spending power. Often people quote a “4%” rule, but I think it’s meant for people that retire at a more “normal” time in their lives. The extra 0.5% actually makes a big difference in the probability that your portfolio can fail.

So, if you have a million dollars, you need to live off $35K a year.

If you’re willing to really change your lifestyle, you can retire off $500K, which would give you $17K a year. It doesn’t sound like much in Silicon Valley, but that will put you in the top tier of income in a place like the Philippines.

I don’t want to post my own net worth because it might come across as chest-beating. I’ve been living in a few places that are a lot cheaper than the United States, so my expenses are low. Over the last three years I’ve been averaging living off slightly less than 2% of my net worth annually. So, I’m REALLY safe by the “3.5% rule”. My net worth is higher than when I retired.

I’m enjoying my life. Every day is a clean slate. There is nowhere that I have to be at two o’clock on a Tuesday afternoon. I can read or take a walk, go to the gym, or tinker with some computer language. I like this life. I sure hope I did all the math right, because if I have to back to a cubicle in Silicon Valley it’s going to be REALLY painful for me. No amount of free sushi by your employer is enough to compensate you for your lack of freedom.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#139

Post by chrisbennet »

mournit wrote: post #35

This uncertainty is one of the things that drives me towards getting a CS PhD and ultimately a research position rather than becoming a software engineer. Older researchers are very common in CS-related fields, both in industry and academia.

I would do more research on that premise before committing to getting a PhD...

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#140

Post by zo1 »

aikah wrote: post #128
MCRed wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm approaching 50, am employed, though I've found that the job search is a bit harder now-- particularly with bay area startups I saw a %100 correlation: If the interview as on video (eg: they could see the white in my beard) I didn't get a second interview. If by phone (no video) I'd get offers. Also, last year in Austin I made exactly %20 more than I did in Seattle in 2000. Kinda sad-- up %20 in 15 years-- that do…

there was a news once about a 40/50 y.o. guy ( I think he was from UK ) who couldn't get a job as a manager in US because he was semi-bald. So he shaved his head entirely and found a good position in a flash. I need to find the link , this was an interesting story. Look is important,unfortunately, but it isn't always about age, sometimes you're too fat, or not white enough ...

>"sometimes you're too fat, or not white enough ..."

Or black enough... Or female enough... Or Non-foreign enough (yes I got this one before)... All sorts of stuff, to be honest.

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