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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#81

Post by derrekl »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #80
derrekl wrote: post #69

I don't know a single software dev over 40 who isn't employed, and I know many that age. None of them had to change fields. Some are managers, but most are "senior" devs. Many of these guys have been programming internet technologies since the later 90's. It seems in the places I've lived (LA, DC) the salaries are pretty squashed together after 5 years experience. Basically anyone with that experience is getting a si…

pay squash is why you should get out of field. engineering is the new proletariat, working at companies that rake in millions for pennies, while all managers above you get twice your pay just by organizing your time.

I don't see the managers above really making that much more. In fact I made less when I was team manager than half my team when I worked for a big public corp. The C level does make a lot more and/or the owners do but not all the management in between. With tech knowledge, though, you can escape the squash by starting your own business fairly easily. Not necessarily easy to create a successful business but easy to give it a shot.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#82

Post by [deleted] »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #80
derrekl wrote: post #69

I don't know a single software dev over 40 who isn't employed, and I know many that age. None of them had to change fields. Some are managers, but most are "senior" devs. Many of these guys have been programming internet technologies since the later 90's. It seems in the places I've lived (LA, DC) the salaries are pretty squashed together after 5 years experience. Basically anyone with that experience is getting a si…

pay squash is why you should get out of field. engineering is the new proletariat, working at companies that rake in millions for pennies, while all managers above you get twice your pay just by organizing your time.

[deleted]

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#83

Post by yoklov »

crdoconnor wrote: post #65
tptacek wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a C programmer. C is my first language. I have shipped C code. I'm pretty sure I've literally shipped C code, in shrink-wrapped boxes. I took my kids to the museum today and hung out in the cafe pushing commits while they wandered around. What was I hacking on? A C compiler . C is less relevant now than it was in 1996. A lot less relevant . Way, way, way less relevant. In 1996, most serious software was written…

I don't really see anything else that has taken its crown for systems programming.

C++ in a lot of places. And systems programming is a much smaller niche now than it used to be.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#84

Post by pistle »

Ehhhh. I'm 40+ and I've never had so many opportunities. Then again, I love this stuff, so it's not really work to keep up. I still love the shiny new thing, and my ramp-up is faster since I've seen most of it before. It's just another language, platform, what-have-you. I worry more about the income plateau. I wouldn't leave because I'm tired, slow, or specialized. I'd leave because the market wouldn't bear my rate growth.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#85

Post by blazespin »

derrekl wrote: post #69

I don't know a single software dev over 40 who isn't employed, and I know many that age. None of them had to change fields. Some are managers, but most are "senior" devs. Many of these guys have been programming internet technologies since the later 90's. It seems in the places I've lived (LA, DC) the salaries are pretty squashed together after 5 years experience. Basically anyone with that experience is getting a si…

A big problem was that most bright engineers were promoted into management, so the ones left programming at 40 weren't so bright. So not so much that age killed the skills, it's just a selection bias.

I think we've got better at that and bright engineers are just being promoted into senior engineers, so hopefully it's fixing the selection bias.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#86

Post by yoklov »

aric wrote: post #58
tptacek wrote: post #23

Don't specialize in things that depreciate as rapidly as programming languages! C++ experience is quickly getting less relevant over time, but stochastic calculus, digital signal processing, machine learning, and distributed systems aren't. Some of those specialties get more valuable; in fact, sometimes, the forces that make things like C++ less valuable actually clear the way for things like distributed systems to b…

Yes, abstracting knowledge to the point of not being able to use or think in basic primitives is often counterproductive. I can't think of a great example. It can apply to anything. Though your larger point stands, C++ is a not so great example. Many languages are roller coasters or extremely specialized. In contrast, C++ is on another upswing with C++11/14/17. It's used practically everywhere, especially in graphics…

Worth noting that the style of C++ most common (in my experience) in game development is pretty far from what is considered "modern C++11 best practices", and the modern C++11 style tends to be frowned upon.

Thats not ubiquitous, but it indicates that despite the upswing, hitching yourself to that language is easier said than done.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#88

Post by derrekl »

blazespin wrote: post #85
derrekl wrote: post #69

I don't know a single software dev over 40 who isn't employed, and I know many that age. None of them had to change fields. Some are managers, but most are "senior" devs. Many of these guys have been programming internet technologies since the later 90's. It seems in the places I've lived (LA, DC) the salaries are pretty squashed together after 5 years experience. Basically anyone with that experience is getting a si…

A big problem was that most bright engineers were promoted into management, so the ones left programming at 40 weren't so bright. So not so much that age killed the skills, it's just a selection bias. I think we've got better at that and bright engineers are just being promoted into senior engineers, so hopefully it's fixing the selection bias.

Interestingly nearly all the guys over 40 I know who are "senior" devs never wanted to go into management. They just said "no!". They are solid reliable devs. They are all doing fine. But then again so are all the guys who went into management. (Sorry, I write "guys" all the time 'cause I grew up in the midwest - not trying to make it all about males)

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#89

Post by flexie »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #80
derrekl wrote: post #69

I don't know a single software dev over 40 who isn't employed, and I know many that age. None of them had to change fields. Some are managers, but most are "senior" devs. Many of these guys have been programming internet technologies since the later 90's. It seems in the places I've lived (LA, DC) the salaries are pretty squashed together after 5 years experience. Basically anyone with that experience is getting a si…

pay squash is why you should get out of field. engineering is the new proletariat, working at companies that rake in millions for pennies, while all managers above you get twice your pay just by organizing your time.

Engineering is certainly not a proletariat. Engineers make more money than most professions and have more interesting jobs as well as lots of respect from other professions (I am not an engineer and I can tell you lots of people admire engineers). Also, many professions experience "pay squash".

It's a myth that most managers make much more than programmers and that they "just" organize your time. Let's have a little bit of respect, not just for our own professions, but also for the people we work with.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#90

Post by mahyarm »

therealwill wrote: post #37
jarsin wrote: post #25

Lets see every 20-30 year old we have brought in the past 3 years: A) Is so arrogant they think they know it all. Then when they turn in the code it's barely passable and it become clear they are going to be difficult to work with. B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously. Now every 35+ person we have brought in for a project is: A) Professional. Gets the job done and very well. B) Sees the…

"B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously." This can be a positive. My experience with 40+ year olds is that they tend to sacrifice user experience/security for what they know. "Our customers won't care if they have to use Internet Explorer with ActiveX as long as it gets the job done." My point is that an experienced programmer who is not up to date can be as detrimental an arrogant 20 year…

Other 'sticks with what they know to a detriment' are devs that stick with SCMs such as svn or cvs or even rcs when things like git or mercurial are out there.

Younger devs who do have experience with this stuck in their ways behaviors and it can be frustrating and they try to side step it by not engaging the older devs.

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