Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#31

Post by wglb » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:09 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #23

Don't specialize in things that depreciate as rapidly as programming languages! C++ experience is quickly getting less relevant over time, but stochastic calculus, digital signal processing, machine learning, and distributed systems aren't. Some of those specialties get more valuable; in fact, sometimes, the forces that make things like C++ less valuable actually clear the way for things like distributed systems to b…

Ok, lets see. The languages that I have seen come and go as intense fads:

  * Easel
  * Telon
  * Powerbuilder
  * Codfusion
  * CICS (was actually taught in a "CS" course not too far from here)
  * PL/I (may be not totally dead, sadly)
  * IITRAN (maybe not that intense)

To Tom's point, I know of a project involving 300 Telon programmers who had to be let go when a massive project failed. Few who invested in the above technologies are working in them today.

More importantly than the article says, develop skill in solving business problems using your programming skills.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#32

Post by nostrademons » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:10 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #23

Don't specialize in things that depreciate as rapidly as programming languages! C++ experience is quickly getting less relevant over time, but stochastic calculus, digital signal processing, machine learning, and distributed systems aren't. Some of those specialties get more valuable; in fact, sometimes, the forces that make things like C++ less valuable actually clear the way for things like distributed systems to b…

When you're young, it can be beneficial to specialize in the "here today, gone tomorrow" technologies, because it negates the advantage of all the greybeards and lets you get exposed to levels of responsibility you wouldn't have a prayer of reaching for 10 years otherwise.

I got my first tech job (at 15!) because I'd taught myself Java, which was then brand-new, and a number of local companies needed experience with that and this weird new technology called the WWW. Parlayed that into a bunch of web experience, often as sole developer or team lead. Parlayed that into a job at Google, where I got to learn information retrieval, machine learning, distributed systems, the stuff that actually has a shelf life.

Someone could certainly end up at the same place (skill-wise) by getting a Ph.D and then a job at Google. The thing is, if you take that path, you're also forgoing work experience, income, perspective on how the industry operates, and the opportunity to jump off into different careers if you find you like them better. My first job out of college was writing software for hedge funds, for example; it turns out I hated the financial industry, but if I hadn't, it wouldn't have been too big a leap to get a job at a hedge fund after that.

The trick is to not kid yourself into thinking that the twelfth Javascript framework you learn is still valuable. The first gives you opportunities, the second and third give you perspective. But after that, have a plan B for things you should be learning that you can't get on the web. All that Java Swing stuff I did around 2000? Basically useless. Ditto the PHP in college, and even my Django & Javascript skills are nearing the end of their shelf life. It's the stuff I've done besides that, the stuff I generally don't talk about on Hacker News, that makes me valuable

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#33

Post by JeremyMorgan » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:12 AM UTC

jarsin wrote: post #25

Lets see every 20-30 year old we have brought in the past 3 years: A) Is so arrogant they think they know it all. Then when they turn in the code it's barely passable and it become clear they are going to be difficult to work with. B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously. Now every 35+ person we have brought in for a project is: A) Professional. Gets the job done and very well. B) Sees the…

When I was a programmer in my 20s, I saw the same among my peers and tried to emulate an engineer in my 30s. I stayed mature, tried to focus on the big picture and was always open to advice from elders because I didn't know squat yet and was aware of it.

Just by doing that I excelled in many areas, and now as a n almost 40 year old developer I try to hire people who act like I did, and believe me they're out there.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#34

Post by erikpukinskis » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:20 AM UTC

Yes, how tragic that someone might have to suffer the indignity of earning a measly $80,000 a year.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#35

Post by mournit » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:21 AM UTC

This uncertainty is one of the things that drives me towards getting a CS PhD and ultimately a research position rather than becoming a software engineer. Older researchers are very common in CS-related fields, both in industry and academia.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#36

Post by A_COMPUTER » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:22 AM UTC

wglb wrote: post #31

tptacek wrote: post #23

Don't specialize in things that depreciate as rapidly as programming languages! C++ experience is quickly getting less relevant over time, but stochastic calculus, digital signal processing, machine learning, and distributed systems aren't. Some of those specialties get more valuable; in fact, sometimes, the forces that make things like C++ less valuable actually clear the way for things like distributed systems to b…

Ok, lets see. The languages that I have seen come and go as intense fads: * Easel * Telon * Powerbuilder * Codfusion * CICS (was actually taught in a "CS" course not too far from here) * PL/I (may be not totally dead, sadly) * IITRAN (maybe not that intense) To Tom's point, I know of a project involving 300 Telon programmers who had to be let go when a massive project failed. Few who invested in the above technologie…

I was maintaining a custom piece of PL/I software until 2010 when I changed jobs, as far as I know the place is still using it. I suppose I have potential value as one of the few people (barely) under the age of 40 that have experience in it.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#37

Post by therealwill » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:22 AM UTC

jarsin wrote: post #25

Lets see every 20-30 year old we have brought in the past 3 years: A) Is so arrogant they think they know it all. Then when they turn in the code it's barely passable and it become clear they are going to be difficult to work with. B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously. Now every 35+ person we have brought in for a project is: A) Professional. Gets the job done and very well. B) Sees the…

"B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously."

This can be a positive. My experience with 40+ year olds is that they tend to sacrifice user experience/security for what they know. "Our customers won't care if they have to use Internet Explorer with ActiveX as long as it gets the job done." My point is that an experienced programmer who is not up to date can be as detrimental an arrogant 20 year old. The 40+ year old programmer who stay up to date though... They are worth their weight in gold and I aspire to join them one day.

Edit: Background - Got really pissed off at a 40+ dev using active x to launch external programs and making it a requirement that our end users use IE with ActiveX enabled. Almost lost my job because management sided with the person who had more experience.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#38

Post by nemo » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:22 AM UTC

danieltillett wrote: post #20

bikamonki wrote: post #2

More options: - Go solo. At 40 you should be experienced enough to handle up to mid-sized projects, alone and on a reasonable time-frame. Try to pick projects that your clients will actually use, with new features and support contracts you will have steady income for the long-term. - Go startup. Stop thinking you need to come up with the next über-for-x. There are plenty of opportunities for small sass shops that cat…

The problem with age is you become less flexible. If your have a business where you know what you will be doing in 6 months time then experience is great - when your plans change weekly then the flexibility of youth is what you want.

Age makes employees less flexible in some senses like not being willing to put up with some of the crap that younger people will (60 hour weeks, endless crunches, etc.) I once did, but will no longer tolerate that crap from an employer.

But being older doesn't mean you stop learning, adapting to change, or lose the ability to deal with moving targets. I'm hopping rapidly between roles and widely varied tasks at my current gig better than I would have in my 20s or 30s since I've got more perspective and experience.

A more mature person might point out that if your plans change weekly you likely have a systemic problem, though, and would be more likely to point out the breakage.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#39

Post by nostrademons » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:22 AM UTC

cheriot wrote: post #28

> Software engineering reliably undergoes a major technology shift at least every 10 years. From web to mobile? What was the tough bridge to cross in the last 10 years?

Yes, web to mobile. Native mobile development is a hugely different beast from web programming, just as web development was a huge shift from desktop GUIs in 2000, desktop GUIs were a huge shift from DOS and other microcomputers in 1990, microcomputers were a huge shift from UNIX and VMS and other timesharing OSes in 1980, and timesharing OSes were a huge shift from batch-processing on IBM & other mainframes in 1970.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#40

Post by AKluge » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:27 AM UTC

danieltillett wrote: post #20

bikamonki wrote: post #2

More options: - Go solo. At 40 you should be experienced enough to handle up to mid-sized projects, alone and on a reasonable time-frame. Try to pick projects that your clients will actually use, with new features and support contracts you will have steady income for the long-term. - Go startup. Stop thinking you need to come up with the next über-for-x. There are plenty of opportunities for small sass shops that cat…

The problem with age is you become less flexible. If your have a business where you know what you will be doing in 6 months time then experience is great - when your plans change weekly then the flexibility of youth is what you want.

> The problem with age is you become less flexible.

For those who use their minds, which should be common in this field, those effects become noticeable much later in life. For most of the working lifespan the dominant effect will be an increase in experience.