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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#91

Post by MCRed »

derrekl wrote: post #69

I don't know a single software dev over 40 who isn't employed, and I know many that age. None of them had to change fields. Some are managers, but most are "senior" devs. Many of these guys have been programming internet technologies since the later 90's. It seems in the places I've lived (LA, DC) the salaries are pretty squashed together after 5 years experience. Basically anyone with that experience is getting a si…

I'm approaching 50, am employed, though I've found that the job search is a bit harder now-- particularly with bay area startups I saw a %100 correlation: If the interview as on video (eg: they could see the white in my beard) I didn't get a second interview. If by phone (no video) I'd get offers.

Also, last year in Austin I made exactly %20 more than I did in Seattle in 2000. Kinda sad-- up %20 in 15 years-- that doesn't even cover the inflation over that time period. (and I was making more than everyone else there, including some senior people.)

I've decided I need to switch to management, as it's time. In fact it's past time, but I have found that too many companies-- particularly startups-- don't promote managers from engineers, they want "biz guys" who don't understand software to be the "managers" way too often. (at least outside of silly valley.)

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#92

Post by phamilton »

jmspring wrote: post #53
Afforess wrote: post #47

I see no one else has mentioned another, even more obvious solution. Retire . With the sky-high salaries it is possible to earn as a software engineer, it should be straightforward (not easy, but still straightforward nonetheless), to save enough to retire at the age of 40. After which, you can spend your remaining time as you see fit, working on personal projects or any other hobby that suits your fancy. This is the…

It is an interesting option if you have the foresight. If you are in your twenties, someone in their 40s can teach you a thing or two. If you plan on living the life of a hermit workaholic, certainly reasonable with your life circumstances. If you have a family, want to travel, or want to buy instead of rent, assuming the Bay Area, very idealistic.

Or buy now and sell in 15 years or so. Move to Boise Idaho. 15 years of equity (ignoring appreciation) means you can buy a house twice the size outright.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#93

Post by MCRed »

blazespin wrote: post #85
derrekl wrote: post #69

I don't know a single software dev over 40 who isn't employed, and I know many that age. None of them had to change fields. Some are managers, but most are "senior" devs. Many of these guys have been programming internet technologies since the later 90's. It seems in the places I've lived (LA, DC) the salaries are pretty squashed together after 5 years experience. Basically anyone with that experience is getting a si…

A big problem was that most bright engineers were promoted into management, so the ones left programming at 40 weren't so bright. So not so much that age killed the skills, it's just a selection bias. I think we've got better at that and bright engineers are just being promoted into senior engineers, so hopefully it's fixing the selection bias.

"most bright engineers were promoted into management so the ones left programming at 40 weren't so bright."

Just wow. Quite a bit of agism there. In my experience most CEOs are not technical, and thy want "business guys" in management. This ranges from big companies (my manager at Amazon had a criminal justice degree and could barely operate a computer, and his IQ was less than 100) to startups (often the CTO will be technical, but also a founder, so there's not a lot of opportunity to become "middle management" during the startup phase.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#94

Post by PhasmaFelis »

I get the impression that this varies considerably with the local tech culture. Apologies for making this about me, but has anyone encountered this problem in the Seattle tech market? I'm 36 now, and I'm thinking of moving there sometime soon. As a coder/sysadmin/general tech guy, is this something I should actually be worried about?

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#95

Post by bdcravens »

Turn 38 on Monday. I turn down work regularly (and I've been guilty at times of not turning down enough work). At the same time, I look much younger than I am (I get carded regularly), wear mostly conference t-shirts and hoodies, wear "hipsterish" glasses, and have a stickered-up MBP, so maybe I fit a stereotype not becoming of my age.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#96

Post by jmspring »

j1o1h1n wrote: post #70
jmspring wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "less flexible", someone doing consulting has flexibility to pick and choose clients. Someone who continually learns is capable of picking and choosing technologies. I would think even someone in their twenties would have issues with "plans changing weekly".

Less "flexible" with salary and benefits, presumably.

I've known people with nest eggs happy to take cuts for something interesting.

But I also know with experience comes a skeptical eye for being asked to carry extra load for less upside (yet same or more risk).

A story from some time back told to me. Founders had a UI, an algorithm, and an idea. It had merit. They sought someone out to build and run the actual service. The funding was angel, the role was senior to C-level, but the salary offered was 40-60k cut for a senior engineer at the usual suspects, equity capped at 4% assuming a trade off in salary.

Risk and reward to build out infrastructure and productize someone's idea? I could certainly get a couple of people to build it out in a "get us to a-round funding" in those guidelines, maybe even beyond. But as expectations on a non-founding senior/early member, one would assume way too much risk for the potential upside.

It isn't non-technical founder seeking technical co-founder waters, but damn close.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#97

Post by olavgg »

crdoconnor wrote: post #45
tptacek wrote: post #23

Don't specialize in things that depreciate as rapidly as programming languages! C++ experience is quickly getting less relevant over time, but stochastic calculus, digital signal processing, machine learning, and distributed systems aren't. Some of those specialties get more valuable; in fact, sometimes, the forces that make things like C++ less valuable actually clear the way for things like distributed systems to b…

>Don't specialize in things that depreciate as rapidly as programming languages C has been around since 1972 and is just as relevant as ever even as the popularity of C++ wanes. Python has been around since 1991 and is growing in popularity. There is a trick to figuring out which technologies will stick around for the long haul, and it is one which most developers don't even think to try and hone. My career advice wo…

I don't get it when people say Java will be less popular. Today it is in most cases, my platform of choice. Modern Java is a damn fun development environment. You just need the right tools like Maven, IntelliJ Idea, Spring Loaded and so on.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#98

Post by phamilton »

cheriot wrote: post #28

> Software engineering reliably undergoes a major technology shift at least every 10 years. From web to mobile? What was the tough bridge to cross in the last 10 years?

I think a current bridge slowly being crossed is a move away from OO programming (along with GoF design patterns) towards functional languages.

GoF patterns provide structure (at the cost of complexity). FP patterns are simpler and succinct but aren't quite as cookie cutter and thus are less structured.

Probably the tick-tock of the pendulum swinging. As software became too unique to maintain, standard patterns were implemented. As standard patterns became overly complex, we swing back to more expressive constructs.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#99

Post by nostrademons »

buyx wrote: post #72
nostrademons wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, web to mobile. Native mobile development is a hugely different beast from web programming, just as web development was a huge shift from desktop GUIs in 2000, desktop GUIs were a huge shift from DOS and other microcomputers in 1990, microcomputers were a huge shift from UNIX and VMS and other timesharing OSes in 1980, and timesharing OSes were a huge shift from batch-processing on IBM & other mainframes in 1970.

It's interesting that you say the transition has happened between web and mobile, because of a lot of people I know are getting up to speed in HTML 5, and are betting the next few phase of their careers on it. Maybe it's because South Africa is a few years behind the curve, but is there evidence that the share of web-based jobs is declining enough to be concerning, in the first world?

The interesting thing about waves of technology disruption is there is usually more than one wave in play at a time, and so a technology can both be disrupting and disrupted. The web was invented in 1989, popularized in 1995, and arguably the point where people realized "Hey, desktop apps are in trouble" was around 2004 when GMail and Google Maps came out. Even so, Dropbox was founded in 2007 as a desktop software company, and that hasn't stopped them from being worth a few billion.

Mobile apps were invented in the 1990s (Newton, Palm), popularized in 2008, and (at least in Silicon Valley) it's a big topic of debate whether the web is dead. In my old job - Google Search - I was still pretty secure as a web guru. In my new job - startup founder - I feel that I at least have to do my due diligence and evaluate the technology.

Whether it's a problem for your career depends on exactly what you want to be doing with your career. There are still people making a living off of COBOL and IBM mainframes. In general, consumer markets peak about 5 years after the technology is introduced to the general public (so microcomputer apps came into their own around 1980 with Visicalc, windowing apps around 1990 with MSWord and various office suites, webapps around 2000 with Google etc, mobile just starting to peak now with Uber/Instacart/etc.) If you're founding a startup you need to account for the time it takes to build your product, so in general you want to use technologies not more than 2 years old. If you're working at a company you don't want to use technologies until the companies that have adopted them have gotten big, so it's frequently 10 years or so after adoption.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#100

Post by aric »

yoklov wrote: post #86
aric wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, abstracting knowledge to the point of not being able to use or think in basic primitives is often counterproductive. I can't think of a great example. It can apply to anything. Though your larger point stands, C++ is a not so great example. Many languages are roller coasters or extremely specialized. In contrast, C++ is on another upswing with C++11/14/17. It's used practically everywhere, especially in graphics…

Worth noting that the style of C++ most common (in my experience) in game development is pretty far from what is considered "modern C++11 best practices", and the modern C++11 style tends to be frowned upon. Thats not ubiquitous, but it indicates that despite the upswing, hitching yourself to that language is easier said than done.

Unreal Engine 4 supports a lot of C++11 style. True, it's not ubiquitous but it is helping the upswing. It's quite the behemoth.
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