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Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

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Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#191

Post by hackuser »

rayiner wrote: post #56
abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

Excellent points. I think that's one reason why management must consider this behavior unacceptable and make that abundantly clear to everyone ahead of time. Silentl disapproval isn't enough, because the victims won't trust you to come forward, and the attackers won't be detered. It's also the reason sexist jokes and seemingly harmless behavior is problematic; it sends the the message to attackers and victims alike that nobody takes these issues seriously.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#192

Post by brandonmenc »

bluehat wrote: post #179
brandonmenc wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes more sense. I can see how announcing every time, "I need a man!" would be grating, instead of just asking a guy to move the stuff without the fanfare.

Nah, it was nothing like that. I fleshed out the paragraph a little. -- Listening to him quote the sexual harassment seminars was the saddest bit: on one hand he was really trying, but on the other, everything he was quoting made absolutely no sense. I frequently found him putting so much effort in where it didn’t really matter, like obsessively counting how many times he had asked a man vs a woman to carry heavy equ…

Ugh, how awkward.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#193

Post by brighteyes »

bluehat wrote: post #187
brighteyes wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reluctance is understandable. But we can't understate the positive: In that very google+ thread, more than one former colleague from Google said something to the effect of "I've always considered you someone to try to hire for my future startup, and I still do." In other words, even if some wary bosses would see any whistleblowing as a risk factor, the fact is that the large majority of responses she got were pos…

I don't work at Medium. I'm taking some time between work right now. I don't think I could have written this if I had a job with a conventional employer. No matter how great my employer is, if the post got popular, it would be pretty irresponsible and could hurt my employer. I'd at least talk it over with my coworkers and have addressed it directly in the article.

Oh - sorry! I must have misread something.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#194

Post by [deleted] »

indrx wrote: post #146
JohnBooty wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From one heterosexual man to another, surely we can see that we're in a different situation than this woman was. Also, > Young associate worked for this partner I don't know how the legal profession works. But: 1. It's quite likely that leaving firm as a young associate carries a huge negative connotation. In other words, her choices might not have been "give a blowjob" or "quit and find another job." It might have b…

But it's not "rape" unless the coercion involved threats of violence, cf http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&gr... It is sexual harassment though.

[deleted]

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#195

Post by pron »

xtrumanx wrote: post #190
pron wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that it would be much easier to fight with such behaviour by calling it by actual names. No, it won't, and let me explain why. One of the well known forms of sexism is what I like to call (I wonder if there's an academic name for this) "everyone's a lawyer". You'll find that often when men report wrongdoings, there's a simple expression of outrage, but when women do, everyone's a lawyer who says "of course…

Are you saying even if it wasn't a rape by whatever your very own definition of rape, you would rather call it rape to express outrage? Of course those "everyone's a lawyer's" types are going to crawl out of the woodwork. Why not call it what it is and not give them any ammo to justify a disgusting action? This isn't the first time I've seen people on the moral highground undermine their own position by giving their…

I am saying that if the victim decides to call it rape because that's how it felt, my first response (nor second, nor third) would not be to discuss the finer points of the law and debate the legal use of the term.

People who act maliciously don't need justification from me. But sexism is usually inadvertent, and "everyone's a lawyer" is a classic, usually innocent, response. So people who are not misogynist, but simply sexist (and we all are to some degree) -- because that's how we've been trained to be -- can benefit from me pointing out this difference in how we respond to stories by women differently from those by men. My goal is not to maintain the moral high ground (which I know I possess in this case anyway), but simply to educate those who wish to learn. Change will be made through education of the "innocent sexists"; not by reforming misogynists.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#196

Post by naturalrecursin »

lettergram wrote: post #158
empressplay wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See? This is what I mean. I'm sure the parent poster is generally a nice person, but while they make what I'm certain they believe is an innocent comment, they claim a) women are less suited for technical careers (which has no basis in fact and is sexist as hell), b) suggest that women should "not complain" because by complaining they only cause men to reject them even more, but then c) on the flip-side say that if a…

Wow, well... to be honest I have no idea where you are coming from: > women are less suited for technical careers (which has no basis in fact and is sexist as hell) a) All I claimed was that it isn't inherently bad to have less women. It could be due to sexism, a distaste for sitting in front of a computer all day, bad food or something else. My point is each situation should be based on it's own merit, and not gener…

   Where do these people live/work where going to the police and reporting an assault/rape or whatever is going to end there career? I'm starting to think that all these stories about sexism against women in tech is some sort of ploy to convince women to not get into the industry. But then I realize that the people spreading this nonsense are the same people who are crying out that there is not enough women in tech and we should do something about it.. It just makes no sense.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#197

Post by alextgordon »

jusben1369 wrote: post #131
mattmaroon wrote: post #59

I'm sorry but this is insane. I guess I can only speak to the segment of the tech industry I've been exposed to, but a woman would not be labelled a liability for reporting a rape or an assault, unless maybe it turned out to be false, in which case that's no different than any other industry. I am sure workplace rape and assault happens in every industry, unfortunately, but I've seen no evidence it's more common or a…

If you look through the comments here and in other similar threads you'll see numerous variations on the "what wait? just leave." It's an understandable but wrong response to these situations. It shifts the problem from the perpetrator to the victim. It's similar to asking women to be covered from head to toe so that they can't somehow tempt males. The onus isn't on the male to control his desires it's on the female…

You unwittingly fall into an enclosure filled with angry chimpanzees.

A crowd gathers, and shouts "Leave the enclosure, climb out, there's a ladder!"

Another crowd gathers and shouts at the first crowd "Shut up. Stop blaming the victim!"

Which crowd has your best interests at heart?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#198

Post by rhino369 »

littletimmy wrote: post #20
tveita wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, could you define what you mean by "grey area sex"?

Hard to define, but easy to give examples for. Here's one: Man drunk. Woman drunk. Man woman have sex. Technically, both of them raped each other. But this is pretty far from what you'd call rape, even if it is legally considered that. This is "grey area sex".

Drunk sex isn't legally rape unless one of the persons is incapacitated to the point where they cannot actually consent. Drunkenness doesn't negate consent like being a minor does.

Though some colleges will call it rape.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#199

Post by nitwit005 »

pron wrote: post #178
mcantelon wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it doubtful that tech is worse than, for example, the finance industry (with its rich history of decadence and debauchery). I also find it "interesting" that the tech industry seems to have replaced the finance industry (whose shenanigans put the West into recession) as the focus of media critique.

So your own coworkers suffer, and your response is, I find it doubtful that we terrorize women more than others? So what if that's true? Is the important story here how we've become victims of the media? Also, software is one of the very few (only?) industries where women participation has been dropping steadily[1], so I find it likely that the situation in tech is worse than in finance (they've had years to learn).…

Our coworkers suffer, but so do the people I know who work in completely different industries.

I have no idea how the tech industry compares to other industries in terms of treatment of women. What I can say for certain is that we do not have the amazing complaints of cocaine fueled parties filled with hookers that seem to regularly emerge from the world of finance.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#200

Post by graeme »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #182
graeme wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another poster pointed out, your own link includes retribution as a form of duress, and it doesn't limit it to physical retribution. Section 261 b. It applies to all of section 261. Did you make a new account just to post a misinterpretation of this link twice? Edit: I changed the text. I had cited the wrong section. But that doesn't change what the document says: section b says retribution is a form of duress, no…

The "duress" you refer to is only relevant when someone is using "the authority of a public official" in lieu of force. I.e., the police/IRS can't threaten to arrest you/hit you with tax penalties unless you sex them up. Please read all of 261.7. [edit: I misunderstood the scoping rules of law. Ignore.]

This isn't correct. I made an incorrect citation, but you're also reading the text wrong.

There is no 261.7. There is 261.a.7, which deals with public officials. 261.b deals with duress, and applies to all of 261.

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