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Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

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Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#171

Post by datashovel »

abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

I can imagine at least one likely useful, but probably extremely invasive policy. But if, based on all of these recent blog posts, this is as pervasive as we're lead to believe then I would argue that invasive policies are the least of your concerns.

For all company events pair people up and make each persons' well-being the other person's responsibility. In the sense that they will share the responsiblity for reporting issues about things that happen to either of the pair, and not that they would be somehow liable for the other person's well-being. You could give people an option to anonymously "blacklist" certain partners if they don't feel safe around them, or anonymously "whitelist" certain pairings with people who they know they are comfortable around.

Bottom line, if it's not good enough to make a person's well-being their own responsibility then distribute the workload across at least one, and perhaps many other people within the organization.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#172

Post by pron »

eveningcoffee wrote: post #128
abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

"A second colleague at a different institution held me against a wall against my objections and struggles and hit me with objects for his own amusement." Now this sounds rather as an assault, a sick power play, but I would accept it called rape when it involved was sexual amusement but probably sexual assault would be a better term as it would not dilute the meanings confusingly. Nonetheless this kind of behaviour is…

> I think that it would be much easier to fight with such behaviour by calling it by actual names.

No, it won't, and let me explain why. One of the well known forms of sexism is what I like to call (I wonder if there's an academic name for this) "everyone's a lawyer". You'll find that often when men report wrongdoings, there's a simple expression of outrage, but when women do, everyone's a lawyer who says "of course that's horrible, but let's call it by the right name".

Leave the precise naming of offenses to the courts; these are legal definitions, after all, and we are not judges and not bound by the rules of evidence. The best way to fight it is to express outrage, period. No caveats, no "right names", and no legal maneuvering that is not our job anyway.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#173

Post by yason »

rayiner wrote: post #56
abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

That's quite different. She had an option to decline. Maybe it would've a very hard choice indeed, both socially and career-wise but she did have that choice. It might be convenient in some cases to broaden the definition of rape gradually but the bottom line is you can not be raped if you are simply able to walk away.

It might be harassment.

It might be blackmailing.

It might be a lot of nasty, disgusting, and even criminal things.

In the above story, the partner was obviously a complete prick.

But the scheme is inherently different from a rape. This abusing prick could've asked both men or women under his supervision for a number of completely unreasonable favours, whether sexual or non-sexual, declining of which would've been similarly catastrophic for the career of his staff members because of the power the abusing partner held over the matter.

But they could've walked away. Maybe they could have restarted their career elsewhere or had to change careers, I don't know. Life isn't fair. But they could've walked away and from what I understand, so could've this young associate in the law firm.

I think the very definition of rape is crossing the very line where the victim is not allowed to leave and forced to be abused instead. A rape is a physical act of violence, regardless of whether what happens is an intercourse or a blowjob or whatever and whether the victim was physically threatened by fists, a knife, or a gun, but the physical nature of the act means if you are able to walk away the rape doesn't happen because it can not happen. And that is for the same reason why a robber with a knife can't kill you unless you're within a few feet of him. A knifeman can't kill you a block away and a rapist can kill you if you're not there.

In some jurisdictions coercion might translate to non-physical threats. Then maybe there it could be classified as a rape. It's still as wrong as if it's classified as something else. But the dynamic of that situation is nevertheless different from the dynamic of a rape with the latter interpreted in the traditional sense. There is a line between situations from where you can actually walk away and situations from where you can not.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#174

Post by graeme »

indrx wrote: post #146
JohnBooty wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From one heterosexual man to another, surely we can see that we're in a different situation than this woman was. Also, > Young associate worked for this partner I don't know how the legal profession works. But: 1. It's quite likely that leaving firm as a young associate carries a huge negative connotation. In other words, her choices might not have been "give a blowjob" or "quit and find another job." It might have b…

But it's not "rape" unless the coercion involved threats of violence, cf http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&gr... It is sexual harassment though.

As another poster pointed out, your own link includes retribution as a form of duress, and it doesn't limit it to physical retribution. Section 261 b. It applies to all of section 261.

Did you make a new account just to post a misinterpretation of this link twice?

Edit: I changed the text. I had cited the wrong section. But that doesn't change what the document says: section b says retribution is a form of duress, not necessarily violent.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#175

Post by wongarsu »

Estragon wrote: post #48
danso wrote: post #21

I don't know what it's like to be raped or sexually harassed, but I am frequently amused at how skeptics think it's so cut-and-dry to just report the issue. This came up in Kelly Ellis's public revelation yesterday that she had been sexually harassed at Google. The Twitter thread starts here: https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574092972624490497 The following is Ellis's statement, and then one of her more earnes…

Do you expect women to wear wires whenever they're sexually harassed? Since the twitter response is predictable by now, and sexual harassment tends to occur over repeated interactions, it's surprising that woman haven't started to make recordings of sexual harassment before making allegations about it.

I don't know about America, but in my country that would likely be illegal. You can't just record everybody without consent.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#176

Post by Lazare »

swatow wrote: post #166
Lazare wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rape is a colloquial term for a range of specific crimes with technical legal definitions. In NZ, for example, the former would be the crime of "Sexual conduct with consent induced by certain threats" (penalty of up to 14 years in prison), whereas the latter would be the crime of "sexual violation" (penalty of up to 20 years in prison). Other countries might lump them together, or call them different names. If you're…

You say that rape is a colloquial term for a range of specific crimes and chide me for not being more specific. And yet the person I replied to was making a positive claim that certain actions were rape. So how am I supposed to interpret that claim? Does rape take on a different meaning (e.g. a broader feminist definition) in that context? If rape is defined to be a crime or class of crimes, it's completely unreasona…

> So how am I supposed to interpret that claim?

As someone using a colloquial term for anything sexual without consent, obviously. Sex without consent is generally called rape; most people don't have any clue about the exact legal definitions. You don't even know what legal jurisdiction OP is in; how could you interpret the word as anything but the colloquial definition?

> In the US I don't believe there is any such crime as rape by threatening to fire someone, or if there is it is not a serious crime.

First, sex crimes are defined at the state level in the US, so it doesn't even make sense to discuss what "the" law is in the US. Pick your state, and you get your answer.

Second, if we pick, eg, Michigan, you're describing...hmm. "Third Degree Criminal Sexual Conduct", which is punishable by up to 15 years in prison. Not sure about you, but I'd call that a serious crime. Other states have different laws, but generally speaking getting someone to perform an act via the threat of firing is coercion, and penetration achieved via coercion is one of the more serious forms of sexual assault.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#177

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #56
abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

[deleted]

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#178

Post by pron »

mcantelon wrote: post #168
geofft wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's a particular reason to believe this is significantly worse in tech than it is elsewhere (although if this I'm wrong, I'd definitely appreciate being corrected on this). But there are a few things I'd say: - Tech has this particular weird cultural self-view that we all see ourselves and each other as middle-school nerds emerging victorious, as people who got past the bullies and the ills of "norm…

I find it doubtful that tech is worse than, for example, the finance industry (with its rich history of decadence and debauchery). I also find it "interesting" that the tech industry seems to have replaced the finance industry (whose shenanigans put the West into recession) as the focus of media critique.

So your own coworkers suffer, and your response is, I find it doubtful that we terrorize women more than others?

So what if that's true? Is the important story here how we've become victims of the media?

Also, software is one of the very few (only?) industries where women participation has been dropping steadily[1], so I find it likely that the situation in tech is worse than in finance (they've had years to learn). Besides, it is Silicon Valley that likes to wave the false flag of meritocracy.

[1]: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-wom...

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#179

Post by bluehat »

brandonmenc wrote: post #129
bluehat wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I meant that I wouldn't have given two shits who he asked to carry heavy stuff. I'll edit it to make that more clear.

That makes more sense. I can see how announcing every time, "I need a man!" would be grating, instead of just asking a guy to move the stuff without the fanfare.

Nah, it was nothing like that. I fleshed out the paragraph a little.

--

Listening to him quote the sexual harassment seminars was the saddest bit: on one hand he was really trying, but on the other, everything he was quoting made absolutely no sense. I frequently found him putting so much effort in where it didn’t really matter, like obsessively counting how many times he had asked a man vs a woman to carry heavy equipment. He always seemed overloaded with things to remember about “not being sexist” and afraid to get something wrong. It seemed almost heartless to risk getting him in trouble.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#180

Post by rhino369 »

graeme wrote: post #134
JohnBooty wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From one heterosexual man to another, surely we can see that we're in a different situation than this woman was. Also, > Young associate worked for this partner I don't know how the legal profession works. But: 1. It's quite likely that leaving firm as a young associate carries a huge negative connotation. In other words, her choices might not have been "give a blowjob" or "quit and find another job." It might have b…

In the US, if she was at Biglaw, then my impression is that leaving is basically unheard of. You're intended to work for a firm for 2-4 years and move on, or stay at the firm on a partner track. Once you're out, it's very hard to get back in. So in practice firms have quite a bit of leverage to demand things like work 100 hours in a week, staying until 2am, cancel plans with family on short notice, etc. Edit: I mean…

Its not that unheard of to leave. In fact probably 50% do by year 3. Though quitting without a job is really damn dangerous.
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