Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower • Hacker News Board

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#51

Post by danso » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:09 AM UTC

late2part wrote: post #42

danso wrote: post #21

I don't know what it's like to be raped or sexually harassed, but I am frequently amused at how skeptics think it's so cut-and-dry to just report the issue. This came up in Kelly Ellis's public revelation yesterday that she had been sexually harassed at Google. The Twitter thread starts here: https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574092972624490497 The following is Ellis's statement, and then one of her more earnes…

Most likely the New York police department you spoke with were under strict orders to reduce the number of reported muggings in their area. Police officers in NYC boroughs have reported the requirements that they refuse to take reports, when the statistics are not in their departments best interest. I have no comment on the relevance to the canonical issue, but this friction you speak about from your mugging is due t…

You bring up a good, valid point, but one that is mostly orthogonal to the issue at hand. To the victim, it doesn't really matter if the friction faced is caused by malice or bureaucratic ineptitude...whether it's the detective who personally doesn't give a shit, or whether it's a detective with a heart-of-gold-who-normally-would-givea-a-shit-but-doesn't-want-to-be-the-squeaky-wheel-tonight...the result is the same to the victim.

Also, in defense of the NYPD detectives, I do not think it was "corruption" that caused the issue...again, things are rarely so black-and-white, good-and-evil. The next day, I was assigned a more enthusiastic detective, and a week later, the suspect was caught by an alert detective who was made aware of the suspect's description. The better explanation is that my story fit the pattern/biases of the initial detective who feels he's seen this shit before, etc. etc., and in his years of work, feels he's entitled to some skepticism.

But again, whether it's the result of actual "corruption" or just "normalcy"...who can really tell the difference?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#52

Post by randyrand » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:09 AM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #7

hrktb wrote: post #3

The title with punctuation: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready To Call Somebody a Whistleblower I found it intersting, but there is a part I couldn't really understand. Does she define rape as an aggretion and not just grey area sex? Because as I understand it it would fall under criminal charges, not 'sexism', most of the time there would be physical/tangible proofs attached to it, and the police arres…

It's dangerous to go down the path of talking about "real rape", which is kinda where you seem to be going with this. Most rape is not "real rape" according to the rapist. Most rape is date rape; the rapist finds a target who is too intoxicated to meaningfully consent (and wouldn't consent when sober), or the rapist is in a position of power over their target (such as a manager with an employee), or they simply don't…

"(and wouldn't consent when sober)"

What you would have done sober is completely irrelevant (for both parties). Most states define alcohol related rape as "too drunk to consent." That is all we need to be concerned about.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#53

Post by rtpg » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:10 AM UTC

meowface wrote: post #39

grey-area wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't this being reported to the police? That's pretty much what the entire article is about - the risks of taking this before a court or even just bringing it up internally in a company; the potential damage to reputation, career and wellbeing can outweigh the slim possibility of justice (and it is a slim one, because often there are no witnesses). Just talking about this would be a huge decision for anyone, let…

I think there are valid points to both sides. Yes, clearly there is a problem (I don't think the problem is unique to tech), but if you constantly live in fear of the consequences of actions which you never take, you're really stuck in an endless cycle. If you report an incident to the police and if they find evidence of sexual assault, what company or coworker is going to apologize for them or criticize you? Especia…

>If you report an incident to the police and if they find evidence of sexual assault, what company or coworker is going to apologize for them or criticize you? Especially if they get convicted.

I want to believe this, but this is a society where a bunch of pepople on a football team got convicted for rape, and we had op-eds lamenting that these people's promising futures were "ruined" by the conviction.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#54

Post by rqvgjcfm » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:10 AM UTC

jackweirdy wrote: post #34

littletimmy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look. That's fine. But one cannot complain about a problem all the while ignoring the main solution system that we have to address that very problem. The alternative is what many feminists seem to be doing these days, which is "I wish men were nicer..." That is borderline stupid. The world will never be a perfectly safe place. You have to report crimes, and hold people accountable, and use the mechanism for correctiv…

> But one cannot complain about a problem all the while ignoring the main solution system that we have to address that very problem. Disagree: That’s exactly what whistleblowing is.

Whistleblowing is providing concrete facts that would hold up to scrutiny, outside the system that they should be reported.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#55

Post by littletimmy » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:12 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #49

littletimmy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, I get the point you are making. My take on this is the following: The problem of someone using another person in a cruel and harsh manner will not be solved until you resolve the problem of massive power differentials in society. In general, when a man has money/power equal to the next 100000 people (literally worth 100000 times more than the next person in our capitalistic language), why on earth wouldn't he thi…

> The problem is not one of gender but one of power. Makes as much sense as saying the problem of drunk driving is not one of alcohol consumption, but cars crashing into other objects. Your gender has an incredibly strong causative influence on how much power you have. So no, unfortunately we don't get to just eliminate gender from the discussion. It would make things easier, but no. > I am sure every powerless black…

I am sure every powerless black man, just before he gets shot on the street like a dog, can take solace in your assertion that his gender has a incredibly strong causative influence on the amount of power he has in society.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#56

Post by rayiner » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:14 AM UTC

abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit.

1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence.

2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police on her boss.

3) Why let it happen more than once? If you've ruled out calling the police, what are you going to do? Can you afford to quit your job on the spot? Can you compromise your long term future at the firm by bringing it to the management? You've worked years to get to where you are, and you just want to do your job and try to get ahead, just like your coworkers who didn't catch the eye of some creep.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#57

Post by grey-area » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:14 AM UTC

meowface wrote: post #39

grey-area wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't this being reported to the police? That's pretty much what the entire article is about - the risks of taking this before a court or even just bringing it up internally in a company; the potential damage to reputation, career and wellbeing can outweigh the slim possibility of justice (and it is a slim one, because often there are no witnesses). Just talking about this would be a huge decision for anyone, let…

I think there are valid points to both sides. Yes, clearly there is a problem (I don't think the problem is unique to tech), but if you constantly live in fear of the consequences of actions which you never take, you're really stuck in an endless cycle. If you report an incident to the police and if they find evidence of sexual assault, what company or coworker is going to apologize for them or criticize you? Especia…

If you report an incident to the police and if they find evidence of sexual assault, what company or coworker is going to apologize for them or criticize you?

Here's some examples of the sort of reaction you can expect from company and coworkers:

https://plus.google.com/+KellyEllis/posts/L4wawXpNt25

I personally don't know if I would have the bravery to go through all that for months or years on end during a trial - strangers questioning your motives and morals, whether you're a liar or fantasist, spewing bile about you in public forums etc etc, and many people you knew well and trusted remaining silent because they're worried about their career. At best you can expect grudging acceptance you had a case, but from most people it seems you'll hear that what happened is simply impossible.

Just look at all the posts on this very story on HN:

I have never observed anything like this, ever, whereas this seems to be commonplace in that strange parallel universe where these women are living.

I have never seen it

I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#58

Post by randyrand » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:14 AM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #7

hrktb wrote: post #3

The title with punctuation: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready To Call Somebody a Whistleblower I found it intersting, but there is a part I couldn't really understand. Does she define rape as an aggretion and not just grey area sex? Because as I understand it it would fall under criminal charges, not 'sexism', most of the time there would be physical/tangible proofs attached to it, and the police arres…

It's dangerous to go down the path of talking about "real rape", which is kinda where you seem to be going with this. Most rape is not "real rape" according to the rapist. Most rape is date rape; the rapist finds a target who is too intoxicated to meaningfully consent (and wouldn't consent when sober), or the rapist is in a position of power over their target (such as a manager with an employee), or they simply don't…

"submitting" should not be confused with "took effort but convinced them to have sex with you"

Saying no and resisting is different than convincing someone to have sex with you. The previous is rape. The latter can often just be part of courtship.

At the end of the day, it should be rather obvious if you're raping someone or not.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#59

Post by mattmaroon » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:15 AM UTC

I'm sorry but this is insane. I guess I can only speak to the segment of the tech industry I've been exposed to, but a woman would not be labelled a liability for reporting a rape or an assault, unless maybe it turned out to be false, in which case that's no different than any other industry. I am sure workplace rape and assault happens in every industry, unfortunately, but I've seen no evidence it's more common or accepted in tech than anywhere else. It's certainly not systematized or condoned. I can't believe Google (for whom she has worked) has any more lenient of a policy on sexual harassment or assault than any other Fortune 500.

And if it were this bad, why would she fear being ostracized? If my options were to stay in an industry and be repeatedly harassed, beaten, and raped, or switch careers, I don't think it'd be a tough call.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#60

Post by swombat » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:15 AM UTC

chroma wrote: post #38

mrbig4545 wrote: post #29

I can't help but think this is a problem in america and not a problem in tech. Over here (UK) I've never seen or heard of anything like this. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and I've just never seen it. Either way, it's not on and it needs to stop

The story in this article is as foreign to me as it is to you. I've worked at various software companies in SV for almost a decade now, and I've also never seen or heard of anything like this. Obviously, it happens, but it's rare enough that one can go their entire career without encountering it. Similarly, 45 people were murdered in SF last year, but I never stumbled across a dead body in my commute. In fact, the mo…

I have spoken at a professional conference and had about two dozen drunk fully grown men shout-chant at me to take my shirt off, becoming louder and growing more numerous the longer nobody responded to them. Security did nothing, and I was on my own to de-escalate the situation.

Yeah, I mean, fucking hell. Seriously? I don't really understand how this can happen. It's just not thinkable in any professional context I have ever experienced. It's about as unthinkable as if a black speaker got on stage and some racists started throwing them peanuts - those people would not remain in the room very long. If security did nothing, the rest of the crowd would probably forcefully throw them out.

It seems some women (in tech or in other places) live in a very bizarre, warped world full of complete assholes. I can understand that they're very upset about that - I would be too. I would not tolerate remaining in such an environment, it affronts my basic sense of decency as a human being. But - I have never observed anything like this, ever, whereas this seems to be commonplace in that strange parallel universe where these women are living.

Baffled.

Edit: Interesting that when I was looking at this comment just now it was at -1. Now back at +1. Not quite sure what there is to downvote here. I'm not disagreeing with the OP, just saying that in my career I have never observed the kind of disgusting behaviour she describes. Clearly it must be happening somewhere since so many women report it. I just wonder where.

Even if I was disagreeing with the OP, what is there to downvote? Is disagreement no longer allowed on this site?