What is scarier: that US gov has been lying about this or that US gov genuinely doesn't know what's going on within its agencies?
US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program
321–330 of 579 posts
Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program
#322I do not understand how torture can be an effective tool for extracting accurate information. If I am being tortured, I would likely be so quick to tell my captors whatever they wanted to hear to make the pain stop.
The French 10e division parachutiste arrested and interrogated around 24,000 suspects during the battle of Algiers, often using electrical torture, rape, etc., of which an estimated 3,000 were summarily executed.
This effectively put an end to the FLN presence in Algiers. Which, I suppose, gets to show that it can be effective in some circumstances, if you are willing to show the appropriate degree of ruthlessness.
Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program
#323Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not sure who said, maybe it was Slavoj Zizek, about how if we are even debating "is torture right or what advantages it might have" we have already lost. It was, and I think his point is borne out in the fact that numerous films and TV shows have depicted torture that would formerly have been the preserve of pure villains to tools available to heroic protagonists in sufficiently urgent circumstances. Never do you see…
I have a family member who was hooked on the TV show "24" which featured torture. I think that it is quite possible that there is some purposeful desensitization going on.
My little sister just got into with me on facebook about how it is perfectly ok to torture our enemies.
That's just the last straw for me. I would never have someone in my life, family or not, who would think raping people is acceptable. This is even worse. Even our enemies shouldn't be raped/tortured.
Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program
#324I hope we can all agree now that a country' ideology doesn't matter, what matters is how the power is structured. And that's not pretty.
Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program
#325A few things: The Republicans have issued a rebuttal. I assume this means they support torture. I hope this dissuades some of their remaining voter base from continuing to support them. Clapper has issued a rebuttal, claiming that the report isn't neutral. I assume he also supports torture. Not sure that he has any credibility left after being caught on the record lying to congress, but whatever. The White House atte…
> dissuades some of their remaining voter base from continuing to support them.
The republican base supports torture. And subconsciously they don't even care if it's "effective" or stops anything. They just want punishment and vengeance.
Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program
#326> Interrogation techniques such as slaps and "wallings" (slamming detainees against a wall) were used in combination, frequently concurrent with sleep deprivation and nudity. Records do not support CIA representations that the CIA initially used an "an open, non-threatening approach," or that interrogations began with the "least coercive technique possible" and escalated to more coercive techniques only as necessary.…
We didn't do this to high-value Nazi POWs.
Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program
#327Earlier quoted context omitted.
>The list goes on. It sure does. > At DETENTION SITE COBALT, detainees were often held down, naked, on a tarp on the floor, with the tarp pulled up around them to form a makeshift tub, while cold or refrigerated water was poured on them. Others were hosed down repeatedly while they were shackled naked, in the standing sleep deprivation position. These same detainees were subsequently placed in rooms with temperatures…
This is our government, and these acts are done in the name of our safety. If you are not interested in someone torturing on your behalf, you need to speak out, and loudly.
[deleted]
Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program
#328It's a shame the report is so partisan. The democrat and republican sides disagree on basic facts, such as whether torture worked in extracting information, and whether that information helped to save lives. Both sides accuse the other of cherry-picking to bolster their cause. Since the primary records are unavailable to us, there's no way to get a more trustworthy opinion on the program. The CIA's behavior is probably pretty horrible, but it's unwise to be very confident in that assessment.
Another interesting fact is that torture may work, or it may not, yet many people don't want torture to work. But think about it for a second: If torture worked, it would be an opportunity to save lives. Torturing one known criminal to extract information that could save dozens (or hundreds) of innocents is unsavory to say the least, but it's better than the alternative. (To reverse the situation, one wouldn't kill dozens of innocents to prevent the torture of a known criminal.) Simply ignoring the issue and saying, "Torture is always wrong," can lead to more death and suffering than thoughtfully considering the issue.
I'm not talking about some hypothetical ticking time bomb scenario. This can actually apply to real life. Consider collateral damage. In war, it is acceptable to accidentally kill innocent people. It is also acceptable to intentionally kill combatants. But torturing combatants to extract information that would reduce collateral damage is unacceptable. It's such a strange instance of moral blindness.
Note that this doesn't mean I would want torture to be legal even if it worked. It seems like there's a good case to be made for keeping torture illegal, since doing so would force a would-be torturer to be sure about the circumstances; so sure that they'd willingly to go to prison to save innocent people.
Edit: So far, both replies are attacking positions I do not endorse. I'm saying make torture illegal even if it works. I'm saying ticking time bomb scenarios are poor justifications for torture. But I'm also saying that torture may save lives in some circumstances. If we're willing to accept the horror of collateral damage, we should also be willing to reduce it using methods as horrific as torture.
Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program
#329Earlier quoted context omitted.
> These same detainees were subsequently placed in rooms with temperatures ranging from 59 to 80 degrees Fahrenheit. Oh the horror of room temperature.
I dunno, 59 degrees seems quite chilly if you've just been stripped naked and soaked with ice cold water. Note no mention is made of whether the detainees were dried or clothed first either.
@rayiner
>Oh my god they were quite chilly
And abducted, held without trial, tortured, waterboard, anal raped, threatened, beaten againast a wall, and other things besides. A lot of them while also being totally inoccent (and in any way, without trial).
What exactly have you suffered besides a comfy middle class existance that gives you the moral superiority to laugh at that?
Would you also laugh at jews in Dr. Mengele's cold exposure experiments being "a little chilly"?
Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program
#330Earlier quoted context omitted.
Honest question: Why did you post those messages? Just because they were supposed to be funny? (I wasn't expecting those messages from you?) (FWIW: You are not the first one I ask about this.)
You're probably too morally outraged by all this to appreciate the humor in the phrasing of that sentence.
>You're probably too morally outraged by all this to appreciate the humor in the phrasing of that sentence.
How about the humor in sentences about raping?