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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#381

Post by dashboardfront »

logfromblammo wrote: post #304
dashboardfront wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you're "making 90k" in the valley you have the quality of life worth 30k in a midwestern city. Not true at all, yet this is constantly repeated like it's fact. Look up indifference curves and consumption bundles. You're ignoring microeconomics. For anyone that doesn't assign excessively high utility towards housing size, 90k in the valley is a much better quality of life than 30k in a midwestern city. This is…

If you want your comparison to be equally valid wherever you make it, you have to use the same basket of goods everywhere you go. Otherwise, I can't tell whether you are comparing apples to oranges or pears to grapefruit. When I look at the numbers for that basket of goods that I currently consume, and price it out for San Francisco, I find that it is completely unattainable for anything less than 3 times what I curr…

Yes, but using the same basket of goods is fundamentally flawed because people shift their consumption choices dependent on relative prices. People do not pick the same consumption bundles wherever they go. Your substitution to an inferior good (actually, just less consumption of a normal good, housing space) is compensated with a larger consumption of 'other goods', which have also rose in price but not nearly to the extent your salary went up (tripled, in his previous example). Again, income effect vs substitution effect.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#382

Post by _delirium »

freeqaz wrote: post #359
malandrew wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a software engineer and green card holder from Brazil and there is nothing I want more than to see many of my friends who work in Brazil have the opportunity to come here to work in a great industry. That being said, both you and the anon person you replied to are right about the situation. The position you came to fill is a relatively rare skill here in the US and it helps the US to bring in talent from abroad,…

How would you enforce what market rate is? What prevents a company from saying that market rate is something absurdly low?

That's why I'd support allocating H1Bs by highest-salary-first, instead of via the current first-come-first-served system with a difficult to enforce "prevailing rate" requirement tacked on. Doing so would also tend to allocate the slots to areas where they're most in demand: if a company is offering $140k salary and wants an H1B to bring the person in, I'm more willing to believe this job has a shortage than if another company is offering only $60k for a job that supposedly has a shortage.

(I doubt tech companies want this, though.)

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#383

Post by smw »

NhanH wrote: post #100
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

I'd like to know about the "standard, normalized ways immigrants have come to the US" that you mentioned.

It seems that many people believe that there's a way to immigrate into this country for 'normal' people.

This infographic from Reason Magazine, of all places, is fairly accurate and quite enlightening:

http://www.openlawlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMmigra...

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#384

Post by dllthomas »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #374
dllthomas wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Incarceration is much more highly correlated to your parents income level than their genetics." Nothing requires any stipulation that these minds be genetically inferior.

If the problem is nurture rather than nature then shouldn't we be sending them to school rather than prison?

Presented with an individual, it actually doesn't matter whether the problem was nature or nurture. What matters is what you can do about it now.

Bear in mind that I brought this up as a possible objection that needed addressing, to the argument "we don't need more average minds - look at all the average minds we're not using".

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#385

Post by mynameisvlad »

ep103 wrote: post #224
halflings wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area" Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one. You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. As…

You're entire post is based on a strawman argument. OP didn't say that companies shouldn't hire non-American talent. He said companies should hire non-American talent through traditional immigration proceedings, and that the H1B program lends itself to an exploitative employer-laborer relationship, that ultimately serves to unfairly lower industry pay rates.

> traditional immigration proceedings

So... An H1-B. Because that is essentially your only choice for temporary residency while waiting the many years it takes for an EB-3 (and months/years for 1/2) to go through. Unless the applicant is from Canada, where you can choose to go the TN route but have to be careful because EB is intent to immigrate, or an L-1 if they're an international transfer.

The H1-B is a decent visa for the purpose its intended to serve, as a way to get immigrants here who would otherwise have to wait years to start working while a permanent residency application goes through. It has its shortcomings, but it's a whole lot better than other routes you could go through.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#386

Post by LordHumungous »

bduerst wrote: post #340
LordHumungous wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your anecdotal experience doesn't change the fact that H1B workers are paid less than American workers for comparable positions. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/silicon-valley-h...

This is patently false, and a common misunderstanding of immigrantion laws by U.S. citizens. >Requirement 4 - You must be paid at least the actual or prevailing wage for your occupation, whichever is higher. http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupatio...

The government defined "prevailing wage" for a level 1 software developer in San Francisco is $74,000. Does that sound like a market rate to you?

http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41884...

Edit: For a "web developer" the starting number is $52,000. In San Francisco.

http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41884...

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#387

Post by DigitalSea »

manticore_alpha wrote: post #116
DigitalSea wrote: post #106

The experience for getting a working visa in the US is absolutely atrocious, and let me preface this with the fact I am Australian and Australia offers an E3 visa which allows you to work in the US indefinitely for the sponsoring company. It doesn't have the same issues as a H1-B visa (lottery, restrictions on when you can apply), but offers just as much flexibility and power. I am currently a remote worker for a US…

I hate to say this, but in your position I'd suggest you collude with your employer to fake a degree.

If you faked a degree, you would definitely be caught. If you are caught defrauding the Government in such a way, you might escape jail time (if it is your first offense) but also face the possibility of a ban from the US itself (permanently or for a very long time). This means you would not possibly even be able to travel to the US as a tourist because you tried to deceptively defraud.

Not really an avenue I am looking to explore, thanks. I am going to speak with an immigration lawyer and see what my options are, perhaps for other visas, equivalency for education experience to substitute and an exception on an application. I will probably write up a little blog post detailing how I go, for anyone else who finds themselves in a similar situation.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#388

Post by kjackson2012 »

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

I know two Bay Area H1Bs that were just recently offered over 180K base salary with 250k+ in RSUs over 4 years. That's roughly $250k/yr total package.

The good H1Bs will get extremely high salaries and the shitty H1Bs will take all the jobs that pay shit.

There is no exploitation, it's just how the world works. If you're good there's nothing to fear from competition, and if fact it helps you.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#389

Post by Spooky23 »

jazzyk wrote: post #293
Spooky23 wrote: post #13

My grandparents were all immigrants who didn't need to jump through hoops to come in. IMO, this should still be possible. I think we should have a open lottery that meets 95% of immigration demand, and have some sort of competitive/fast-track process for skilled workers that would weed out the bodyshops. That said, this post is crafted marketing nonsense. For example, a statement like this from a company founder is r…

Immigration is not only still possible, but booming. The number of immigrants living in the US is 12.9% - which is close to an all-time high from about a hundred years ago (14% or so). Source: http://cis.org/2012-profile-of-americas-foreign-born-populat...

Yes -- and a quarter are illegal! From your link (http://cis.org/2012-profile-of-americas-foreign-born-populat...)

"We estimate that 28 percent of all immigrants are in the country illegally. Roughly half of Mexican and Central American and one-third of South American immigrants are here illegally."

Per the population figures in the link... Approximately 6 million people from Mexico and Central America alone don't have legal status. Those people are more vulnerable to all sorts of employer abuses, usually don't have healthcare, can't legally drive in many cases and face all sorts of other challenges.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#390

Post by dethstar »

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

If it was about costs, why wouldn't they simply off shore it? I made another post on a similar thread here a few days ago.

I live in Mexico and there's plenty of companies here that do work for US companies, it's great for both sides, on the US business side they're getting what they want for cheaper, and often by some really talented people. On the Mexican side, the company is getting paid in USD and through exchange rates and what not this turns out to be better for them than doing consulting for local business.

So why would they bother opening the borders even more? When they can get the same people to make it for cheaper from this side?

http://venturebeat.com/2014/06/06/this-map-reveals-exactly-w...

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