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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#111

Post by dude3 »

olegious wrote: post #90

Have a friend- early 20s, speaks 5 languages, graduated from one of her country's top law schools, worked in corporate law, received a full scholarship to do a decent LLM program in the USA- she finished the program with a 4.0. She won a green card, but when it came time for her to interview for the green card she was told- "we filled the Eastern Europe quota." So now she's getting kicked out of the US, shouldn't the…

True, but lawyers have the American bar associations, unlike programmers, that keep competition low. Doctors have the similar American Medical Association.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#112

Post by candybar »

This is a false dichotomy, because cost and talent are related - either this is about minimizing the cost of talent at a fixed level of talent, maximizing the talent at a fixed level of cost, or something in between.

It's completely implausible that for a small company, the amount of talent they need cannot be had at any cost without immigration.

I'm extremely sympathetic to the economic argument that there is no such thing as shortage and companies simply need to pay up to get the talent they need.

What does exist, on the other hand, is the cost of labor gap between other countries and the US, which can in the long term make American companies less competitive and cause companies to move projects overseas at the margin, whether by outsourcing or through foreign subsidiaries. What's in the the best interests of the US is a careful balancing act that ensures neither the flooding of the labor market with cheaper labor, nor erosion of American competitiveness through extreme cost differences.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#113

Post by fargolime »

bradleybuda wrote: post #43
bokonist wrote: post #12

Seems like the sensible solution would be to auction off the immigration quota slots. Decide on some number of business/talent based visas to be issued each year. Then do a rolling auction of the visas. If a person gets a visa, comes to America, but then does not like their job and goes home, the company gets a prorated refund. If the person stays more than five years, they get a green card automatically and are free…

The unstated premise behind your comment, and indeed this entire debate, is that there is only so much "room" for immigration in the US. This leads us to arguments about how large the quota should be, how it should be divided, etc. This is a flawed assumption. The US has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration, and on average every single immigrant we accept would increase the size of our economy. Immigrants are…

Increasing the size of the economy isn't the best choice, though. We have too many people in the US as it is. More people, more money, more stuff isn't always better. (Using a throwaway since it seems most people think more people and skyscrapers and traffic and higher taxes to compensate for the dwindling resources is wonderful.)

No, we don't have unlimited room, unless you're planning to not feed or provide water to these people long term.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#114

Post by krschultz »

dashboardfront wrote: post #55
selmnoo wrote: post #3

> Just a few hours later, Vox published an article titled These tech interns are probably making more than you are where they shared a tweet showcasing candid salaries at various tech companies, some larger, some smaller: That is a kind of a bullshit argument though isn't it, that "hey look, the interns (supposedly half-able, incompetent newbies) are getting paid so high!! We have such wonderful salaries in tech!" It…

> When you're "making 90k" in the valley you have the quality of life worth 30k in a midwestern city. Not true at all, yet this is constantly repeated like it's fact. Look up indifference curves and consumption bundles. You're ignoring microeconomics. For anyone that doesn't assign excessively high utility towards housing size, 90k in the valley is a much better quality of life than 30k in a midwestern city. This is…

Exactly. When I lived in the suburbs I had a 3 bedroom condo, and my wife and I owned two cars. I moved to the city and we now have a 1 bedroom apartment and no cars. Total cost of living is roughly the same. My happiness in my living arrangements is about the same. A cost of living calculator would make it look like we are getting absolutely hosed.

Our take home $ into bank accounts tells an entirely different story. The raise more than made up for any increased cost of living.

It kind of makes sense too, if it didn't make sense, people wouldn't be doing it, there wouldn't be so much demand, and prices would fall.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#116

Post by manticore_alpha »

DigitalSea wrote: post #106

The experience for getting a working visa in the US is absolutely atrocious, and let me preface this with the fact I am Australian and Australia offers an E3 visa which allows you to work in the US indefinitely for the sponsoring company. It doesn't have the same issues as a H1-B visa (lottery, restrictions on when you can apply), but offers just as much flexibility and power. I am currently a remote worker for a US…

I hate to say this, but in your position I'd suggest you collude with your employer to fake a degree.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#117

Post by alyandon »

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

>I've worked at multiple companies (managed their websites) -- where we would temporarily post a job description to >appear that it was a fair playing field for local workers -- when in reality that position was definitely, absolutely >going to be filled by a cheaper, exploitable H1B visa position.

I worked as a contract developer for over 10 years and this was absolutely the norm for the companies I worked at. It was so egregious at some places that HR would go as far as to get the exact list of skills from the H1B they wanted to hire and then tailor a job posting to that exact list of skills in order to disqualify local applicants.

The H1B system is broken. It is easily gamed and the burden of proof of wrongdoing so high that it is impossible to prevent companies from doing this.

Edit: I want to add that I'm sure that there are companies whose management doesn't abuse the H1B system. My position that the H1B system is broken remains unchanged as it is the bad actors that are causing the problems yet there is no remedy short of congressional action that can properly address the issue.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#118

Post by stretchwithme »

hnnewguy wrote: post #98
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

> There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area, provided you can pay But this is precisely what defines an economic shortage. There's no shortage of anything , if the price offered is right. I wonder if the discrepancy between supply and demand for labour in the Valley has to do with the fact that, unlike most other industries[1], so many companies aren't making money, and hence can't pay, but still demand m…

Definition of shortage on Google: a state or situation in which something needed cannot be obtained in sufficient amounts.

Doesn't mention anything about not paying the market price.

Those not willing to pay the market price can't buy a loaf of bread.

It is prices that incentivize people to provide what we need.

And when the bubble pops, prices will tell people the opposite.

Either way, its just a market condition that entrepreneurs have to deal with, just as they deal with all of the other things that change all the time.

It is unlikely a robot will ever be able to do the job of entrepreneur.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#119

Post by NhanH »

manticore_alpha wrote: post #109
NhanH wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to know about the "standard, normalized ways immigrants have come to the US" that you mentioned.

I won't say it's trivially easy, but with determination it can be done.

I don't necessary disagree with you on this: if there is a will, there is a way. Regardless of how the immigration law is, even if you make it "No immigration at all", someone will find a way to get in.

But that's far and far away from "standard and normalized", which implies something is accessible to standard and more average people. The top .5 or 1% (as in aptitude and willpower) will always find ways to get things done, but do you want to get the next 9% too?

The Nobel winner, the Elon Musk won't ever have to care much about those laws, but the discussion has never been about them either.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#120

Post by fargolime »

kourt wrote: post #82
bradleybuda wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unstated premise behind your comment, and indeed this entire debate, is that there is only so much "room" for immigration in the US. This leads us to arguments about how large the quota should be, how it should be divided, etc. This is a flawed assumption. The US has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration, and on average every single immigrant we accept would increase the size of our economy. Immigrants are…

The current US population is 7 billion, US population is 300 million. How many of the 6.5 billion non-Americans do you think could be rapidly absorbed, both terms of infrastructure (roads, water, sewers) as well as housing, culture, and government subsidies? Your answer MUST be expressed a NUMBER, not some vapid BS platitude.

Just put skyscrapers everywhere! Cut down those national forests. Dam all the rivers. Build baby build!
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