Immigration is about talent, not costs • Hacker News Board

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#41

Post by jarek » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 5:15 PM UTC

supercanuck wrote: post #15

Funny, I only see 3 companies he listed in the Top 100 on this particular list: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2014-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx Could that be maybe the H1-B's are not going to the right companies? Why are interns making more in salary than the H1-B's? The issue I have is not with Immigration, it is with the H1-B System. Because of the limited supply of H1-B's and the nature of them to tie the visa holder…

> Why are interns making more in salary than the H1-B's?

Much of intern salary is de facto recruiting budget. It's probably the best way to identify desirable employees and get a chance to sell your company to them.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#42

Post by ethbro » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 5:15 PM UTC

selmnoo wrote: post #25

lmg643 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. It's strange to read these kinds of articles. The author doesn't seem to realize that he is describing his own personal preferences, and not anything about society at large. All you need to do is look at the top recipients of visas and you will understand what the game is.

This brings up an interesting question. The reasoning for bringing talent over from abroad, does it make sense ethically? I'm greatly irked by the idea of a young and ambitious Indian/Nigerian/Chinese/Russian guy or girl coming here to... optimize ad targeting at Facebook, he/she should stay in India or Nigeria, because by golly Nigeria NEEDS that person much more than us. We can do fine with Facebook advertising alg…

Unfortunately, the individual perspective on that is that opportunities for "talent" to choose their own destiny are eradicated.

Yes, brain drain is terrible (though I can't see how it's unexpected given a global economy). However, you were born Indian/Nigerian/Chinese/Russian/American, therefore you must always work in India/Nigeria/China/Russia/US is equally terrible.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#43

Post by bradleybuda » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 5:15 PM UTC

bokonist wrote: post #12

Seems like the sensible solution would be to auction off the immigration quota slots. Decide on some number of business/talent based visas to be issued each year. Then do a rolling auction of the visas. If a person gets a visa, comes to America, but then does not like their job and goes home, the company gets a prorated refund. If the person stays more than five years, they get a green card automatically and are free…

The unstated premise behind your comment, and indeed this entire debate, is that there is only so much "room" for immigration in the US. This leads us to arguments about how large the quota should be, how it should be divided, etc.

This is a flawed assumption. The US has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration, and on average every single immigrant we accept would increase the size of our economy. Immigrants are not a "drain on the system" that must be limited. Human brains are the single most valuable resource in the universe, and we should take as many as we can. Not only that, but the people who self-select to move their families across the world are the most motivated, entrepreneurial, and risk-seeking brains in the world.

Our default assumption should be that the walls are down and the gates are open; only in extraordinary cases should we be sending anyone (regardless of skills) away at the border.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#44

Post by mooreds » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 5:15 PM UTC

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #2

For "real" technology companies like AeroFS, that use a small fraction of the H-1B quota, it's about talent. For body shops like Infosys, WiPro, Tata, etc that use up the vast majority of the H-1B visas it's absolutely about cost.

Took some digging, but here's a list of top companies with H1B visas for the FY 2013:

http://www.computerworld.com/article/2489146/technology-law-...

Top 5:

   * INFOSYS
   * TATA
   * COGNIZANT
   * ACCENTURE
   * WIPRO

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#45

Post by dagw » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 5:15 PM UTC

selmnoo wrote: post #25

lmg643 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. It's strange to read these kinds of articles. The author doesn't seem to realize that he is describing his own personal preferences, and not anything about society at large. All you need to do is look at the top recipients of visas and you will understand what the game is.

This brings up an interesting question. The reasoning for bringing talent over from abroad, does it make sense ethically? I'm greatly irked by the idea of a young and ambitious Indian/Nigerian/Chinese/Russian guy or girl coming here to... optimize ad targeting at Facebook, he/she should stay in India or Nigeria, because by golly Nigeria NEEDS that person much more than us. We can do fine with Facebook advertising alg…

The counter argument is that once that Indian/Nigerian/Chinese/Russian guy or girl has been at Facebook for a few years they'll have gained experience and expertise they'd never be able to get at home. Thus they'll be a lot better at solving the hard problems that exist in their country. Also some of the money they get paid often makes it back to their home country and helps the local economy.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#46

Post by protonfish » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 5:16 PM UTC

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #2

For "real" technology companies like AeroFS, that use a small fraction of the H-1B quota, it's about talent. For body shops like Infosys, WiPro, Tata, etc that use up the vast majority of the H-1B visas it's absolutely about cost.

From where I am sitting, it looks like more than just cost, it's about control. If a smart mouth prima donna like myself lost his job, it would suck, yes, but if I were an H1-B I could be deported. If I were in that position I would think twice about telling my boss something he didn't want to hear.

But it's worse than that. An Indian coworker once shared an unsubstantiated story about how an unscrupulous recruiter brought over a bunch of IT workers from India and forced them to work for essentially nothing. One call to immigration from their employer and they are sent back. It's hard for me to imagine the vulnerability of being in a place distant from my home with minimal language skills and no knowledge of my rights. Neither your boss nor US immigration is your friend.

Another thing I see from Indian workers is a strange ability to be experts in extremely specific and obscure technologies. If in an interview if I am asked about my proficiency in unfamiliar piece of software, I might respond "It looks similar to other tools I have used. I am sure I could pick it up quickly."

This is NOT what pointy-haired HR suit-monkeys want to hear.

I don't know if Indians are more comfortable lying about this, or if they take a crash course to prepare for the interview, or if they are graduates of some school in India called "The Institute of Suspiciously Obscure Technologies" but this may be a large part of the justification behind the "talent" excuse for more H1-Bs.

There is plenty of talent domestically - they real business need is simply being buzzword-compliant and an unwillingness to train.

If that came across a little racist, Let me say that with rare exception the Indian people I have known are competent and pleasant coworkers. I have no personal issues there.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#47

Post by mavelikara » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 5:16 PM UTC

bokonist wrote: post #12

Seems like the sensible solution would be to auction off the immigration quota slots. Decide on some number of business/talent based visas to be issued each year. Then do a rolling auction of the visas. If a person gets a visa, comes to America, but then does not like their job and goes home, the company gets a prorated refund. If the person stays more than five years, they get a green card automatically and are free…

Along similar lines, the cost of sponsoring H-1Bs should grow exponentially with the fraction of the company's workforce that is on H-1B, beyond a small threshold.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#48

Post by raverbashing » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 5:17 PM UTC

tmorton wrote: post #18

hackerboos wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Seems like the sensible solution would be to auction off the immigration quota slots Sounds like a great way to skew immigration in favour of big business and completely screw over start ups and SMBs.

Pricing a scarce resource doesn't "screw over" anyone.

Of course it does

Tata can rake the auction price up because even though their worker doesn't have a great salary, they're being billed a lot. 10k, 20k for a H1B? NO PROBLEM!

You're just shutting the small players out.

As an example, Red Hat hires a lot of H1Bs, now, since they know how to work remotely this is not such a big issue, still.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#49

Post by TheCoelacanth » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 5:18 PM UTC

yurisagalov wrote: post #11

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #2

For "real" technology companies like AeroFS, that use a small fraction of the H-1B quota, it's about talent. For body shops like Infosys, WiPro, Tata, etc that use up the vast majority of the H-1B visas it's absolutely about cost.

I agree that what's happening with Infosys/Tata/WiPro requires a serious look. I also think that today demand for high skilled workers far outstrips the 65,000 quota that Infosys/Tata/WiPro abuse. We should be addressing both, and fixing both. I don't know how to address the Infosys/Tata/WiPro problem, but I do believe that not increasing the H-1B quota is not doing anyone else any favors, either.

I'm all for allowing more skilled workers to immigrate, but not on the terms of the H-1B visa. The H-1B visa gives too much power to the employer. Workers should be able to move to a different company without going through a bureaucratic process and without their green card application resetting, and they should not have to leave the country if they are out of work for a few months.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#50

Post by pauleastlund » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 5:18 PM UTC

teacup50 wrote: post #34

drivingmenuts wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Purely on the informative side: why are these people called "interns" when it looks more like they're straight-up "contractors" or "employees"? Is this just a convenient fiction?

Most of them are worthless; of any given intern class at a first tier technology company (e.g., Apple), only ~1-5% will actually be offered a full time job. Those 1% are worth every penny, but you simply don't know who they are until you give the entire intern class the opportunity to demonstrate their abilities.

In my experience at Google, far, far more than 1-5% were offered full time jobs. Maybe my group just had above-average interns? But I don't think so. The intern hiring bar was fairly high.