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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#291

Post by shas3 »

arenaninja wrote: post #283
shas3 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am surprised each time I see this kind of casual bigotry on HN. Seriously, "school in India called, Institute of Suspiciously Obscure Technologies"? I don't think there's any other way of reading your comment other than "most Indians lie on resumes and in interviews." It's understandable seeing this kind of stuff on reddit from 13 year-olds. But I don't understand what vantage makes you make such sweeping generaliz…

> I don't think there's any other way of reading your comment other than "most Indians lie on resumes and in interviews." That's not what I got out of reading that same snippet

And what did you get out of it, then?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#292

Post by npsimons »

sliverstorm wrote: post #247
halflings wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area" Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one. You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. As…

Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst. Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country. We aren't the Borg, but we would like to see you learn at least a little English, accept your new country, and generally participate. You are already most of the way…

Exactly. We've already seen Islamists try to enforce sharia in England; if we had wanted a theocracy, we would have let the Christofascists take over long ago. And before anyone goes claiming oppression of differing cultures, the secular culture that is America is precisely the root cause of why many people want to to move there. Others in this thread have already mentioned things like misogyny, homophobia, etc, that while it's not a solved problem in America, isn't nearly as bad as it is in some other countries.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#293

Post by jazzyk »

Spooky23 wrote: post #13

My grandparents were all immigrants who didn't need to jump through hoops to come in. IMO, this should still be possible. I think we should have a open lottery that meets 95% of immigration demand, and have some sort of competitive/fast-track process for skilled workers that would weed out the bodyshops. That said, this post is crafted marketing nonsense. For example, a statement like this from a company founder is r…

Immigration is not only still possible, but booming. The number of immigrants living in the US is 12.9% - which is close to an all-time high from about a hundred years ago (14% or so).

Source: http://cis.org/2012-profile-of-americas-foreign-born-populat...

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#294

Post by Joky »

When I was struggling with the H1B lottery and was considering the options with my Lawyer, she told me that an the company could apply for EB2 directly. You don't need to be working here to enter the process. Of course EB delays depends on the skill (EB1, EB2, EB3...) and the country of origin. But for a European, it can be done quite quickly. Especially, the company does not need a candidate to do the first part (labor certification) if I understood correctly, so assuming that this part is done a French candidate (as mention in the article) could be hired in a matter of months.

My lawyer just told me that companies does not go this way because it is a little bit more costly, but also because if they get someone on H1B first, they can lock him inside for years while processing the EB, limiting his leverage to ask for raise or changing jobs.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#295

Post by sremani »

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #92
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

"We" don't need anything in this. Immigrants don't assimilate the moment they get here. They never have. The old saying is, "The parents don't speak English, the children are bilingual, the grandchildren speak English". There have always been ethnic neighborhoods, as long as there's been immigration. Having said that, H1Bs are indentured servitude.

Being lived as an H1-B for about 5 years of life then on EAD and then on GC. The initial couple of years on H1-B is exploitation (not even close to any kind of servitude), but since 2006, I was fairly compensated. May be there are horror stories out there, but you have to understand most of the H1-Bs are educated enough and have contextual nuance with regard to jobs and salary matters, very few have to be indentured servants. The talented H1-Bs that come on body-shop boats, switch their employer to a more easy to work for company. Yes, H1B means being tied to hip of a company, but there are enough firms out there that really work. The problem with smaller companies is the HR and Legal are too ignorant about the whole process and needs baby sitting from the H1B holder himself.

I am not denying exploitation of H1B but certain companies but I think you have a skewed view, it does not apply to majority of the situations.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#296

Post by eli_gottlieb »

exelius wrote: post #250
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. No, the system just needs to be reformed. And I've seen the right reform proposal often enough to be circulating it myself: * The government can give out N visas in an auction. Firms bid via legally-binding salary offers. The N highest salaries bid…

> * The government can give out N visas in an auction. Firms bid via legally-binding salary offers. The N highest salaries bid get the visas, and the government takes a small additional payroll tax as the only fee. This would be doomed to fail. Professional services firms can outbid basically everyone because they can turn around and bill that person out at 5x their salary. The visas will never adhere to the workers…

>This would be doomed to fail. Professional services firms can outbid basically everyone because they can turn around and bill that person out at 5x their salary.

So what? The purpose of skilled-worker immigration in public policy is to maximize productivity, not to cater to the industry to which people on Hacker News happen to belong.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#297

Post by Squarel »

300bps wrote: post #178
DigitalSea wrote: post #106

The experience for getting a working visa in the US is absolutely atrocious, and let me preface this with the fact I am Australian and Australia offers an E3 visa which allows you to work in the US indefinitely for the sponsoring company. It doesn't have the same issues as a H1-B visa (lottery, restrictions on when you can apply), but offers just as much flexibility and power. I am currently a remote worker for a US…

First you said: it is not that they are looking for "cheap labour" Then you said: The company is based in Seattle and they are facing increasing competition from Microsoft and Amazon mostly who are sucking up all of the talent in the area, whilst other smaller startups and companies struggle to hire people because the bigger companies are offering more money. Your second statement contradicts your first statement. Wh…

Only if you define the market rate as "That paid by those with the deepest pockets", in which case, you may find the price of a gallon of milk to be somewhat different than what you expect.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#298

Post by malandrew »

barrkel wrote: post #272
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

I got a H-1B visa. I was living in Ireland at the time. But, as it turned out, I never moved to the US. It was for a compiler position at Borland. I ended up working remotely for the next 6 years or so, first for a year as a contractor at a 6 figure Euro rate, then later as a salaried employee after I moved to London. They flew me over two to four times a year to keep up to date with the team. I collectively lived ov…

I'm a software engineer and green card holder from Brazil and there is nothing I want more than to see many of my friends who work in Brazil have the opportunity to come here to work in a great industry. That being said, both you and the anon person you replied to are right about the situation.

The position you came to fill is a relatively rare skill here in the US and it helps the US to bring in talent from abroad, but the person you replied to isn't wrong. It's not like compiler engineers don't exist in the US. They most certainly do and they most certainly would make more money if you couldn't get compiler people from abroad.

Personally, I would love it if we were far more liberal with giving out H1-B visas, but also required companies to pay those H1-B visa holders a premium over local talent. i.e. if the market rate is foo, then you need to pay 1.5x foo salary to bring that person from abroad. This would ensure that companies actually can get access to all the talent they need irrespective of origin, but that the talent that comes from abroad doesn't depress salaries.

1.5x foo is friggin' cheap if the alternatively is not having the talent at all. It also forces you to always consider domestic labor first if it exists instead of abusing the H1-B visa program to get cheap labor like many companies do.

Such a system would also serve to help salaries rise to the levels enjoyed by doctors and lawyers (which is really where salaries should be for any solid engineer). If this means certain business models are no longer viable, then c'est la vie. There's nothing that says that you have a right to a business model that wouldn't exist if salaries were not depressed.

Alternatively, I would be okay with eliminating the lottery and giving visas out on the basis of the premium companies are willing to pay over the salary a domestic worker would be paid. If your company is willing to pay 2.0x foo for a position, then you will get the H1-B visa ahead of a company only willing to pay 1.5x foo. The floor would be set at something like 1.1x foo.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#299

Post by acveilleux »

nostromo wrote: post #279
deskamess wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree... (was on H1). The core problem is that the sponsoring company is in control. Control needs to be moved to the candidate (worker). The H1 should not be tied to the employer, but to the candidate, and they should be able to switch employers by registering their new employer with the DHS (HR of the new company and employee act on signing day). H1'ers should be free to move at will and immediately after enterin…

Allowing H1Bs to bounce around (unless each job they take can't be filled by the domestic workforce) would violate the intent of the law. "The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States." http://w…

In practice no one cares about intent of the law, it's about exact wording, jurisprudence and cost/benefit of the penalties.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#300

Post by exelius »

hkarthik wrote: post #269
exelius wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area, provided you can pay (and your ideas are interesting) There actually is a talent shortage in the Bay Area. If there was no talent shortage, prices for local labor would be lower. If there wasn't a talent shortage, it wouldn't be possible for me to hire a developer from India, pay to fly him out here, put him up in a hotel in Mountain View for 6 months - all for…

> But the reality is that we need a deep bench of competent developers willing to work for substantially less than $100k a year. And there we have it. You want developers to continue to be happy with less than $100K salaries while the costs of local housing skyrockets by 20% year over year. Clearly that won't work for developers hitting their 30s and wanting to start a family or those with families already. So you're…

That's a problem unique to the bay area. You don't have to live in the bay area to be a developer.
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