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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#241

Post by thedufer »

thrwy10 wrote: post #128
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

It absolutely, positively hurts local labor - naturalized citizens - etc. Without a doubt. I disagree with this statement. I am on an H1 and know several other people who are on H1s and can testify that this is a generalization. There are many ways to end up on an H1, overseas body shops is one avenue and American grad schools are another. Most H1s I know, myself included, graduated from good schools, have worked har…

I don't think the point you take issue with is really debatable. The only way it could not be true if there is actually no one in the local labor market who can do the job, and that's a very difficult argument to make. Outside of that, every H1 is a job a citizen isn't getting.

You didn't touch on this at all, so I'm not really sure what your point is. I think you're debating a strawman.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#242

Post by eli_gottlieb »

bradleybuda wrote: post #43
bokonist wrote: post #12

Seems like the sensible solution would be to auction off the immigration quota slots. Decide on some number of business/talent based visas to be issued each year. Then do a rolling auction of the visas. If a person gets a visa, comes to America, but then does not like their job and goes home, the company gets a prorated refund. If the person stays more than five years, they get a green card automatically and are free…

The unstated premise behind your comment, and indeed this entire debate, is that there is only so much "room" for immigration in the US. This leads us to arguments about how large the quota should be, how it should be divided, etc. This is a flawed assumption. The US has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration, and on average every single immigrant we accept would increase the size of our economy. Immigrants are…

> The unstated premise behind your comment, and indeed this entire debate, is that there is only so much "room" for immigration in the US. This leads us to arguments about how large the quota should be, how it should be divided, etc.

No, the actual assumption is that the US wants to bias its flow of immigrants towards high-skilled, high-value people working in high-value-add positions. If human brains are a valuable resource, he is proposing that the government should issue visas to the best and brightest resources it can get.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#244

Post by diogenescynic »

I've worked for tech companies and a law firm that was in the top 4 in global immigration. The worker shortage is a myth. It doesn't exist. When a company claims they can't find a US worker they are lying and going through 'recruitment efforts' for Green Card and I-140 applications. HR uses a list of skills from the H1B they wanted to hire and then tailor a job posting to that exact list of skills in order to disqualify local applicants. By claiming they can't find a US worker they can bring in their wage slave who will be an indentured servant. They will use that person's visa and green card as a carrot to wave in front of their face to make them go along with violating labor laws. "Someday you'll be a US citizen if you just put up with this for a little bit more!" They string this out into a decade long process often. Oracle and Yahoo were the worst offenders. Anyone who is 'pro-immigration' is just an unknowing tool for multi-billion dollar conglomerates. Immigration has been turned into a public subsidy for the richest corporations.

Then you have outsourcing companies like Cognizant regularly scooping up 50% of the H-1b lottery: http://www.computerworld.com/article/2489146/technology-law-...

It's pretty disingenuous to claim there isn't a US worker, the companies have no intent to hire an American. Their entire business model is built around outsourcing the work. Now if you want to talk to me about legalizing farm workers I have no problem with that. I think it's pretty disgusting we have this shadow economy built on third class workers that we all benefit from and know exists. Unfortunately they don't have the tech industry lobbying for them like the H-1B holders do. There's a reason Silicon Valley lobbies for more H-1bs but not Greencards: http://online.wsj.com/articles/michael-s-malone-the-self-inf...

The problem with freedom of labor and open borders is that it's usually just one way. How many Americans are going to work abroad in India? How many Canadians are going to work in China? It's feel-good rhetoric but ultimately it's just an excuse to flood richer nations with workers from poorer nations. I'd be all for this system if there was some kind of tit-for-tat program where India gets as many visas given to them as they give to us proportionally--but it will never happen. If STEM and engineers are so in demand why have their wages stagnated? Why has the average income actually dropped in Silicon Valley? There's a disconnect in what they claim is happening and what is really happening.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#245

Post by PeterisP »

bradleybuda wrote: post #43
bokonist wrote: post #12

Seems like the sensible solution would be to auction off the immigration quota slots. Decide on some number of business/talent based visas to be issued each year. Then do a rolling auction of the visas. If a person gets a visa, comes to America, but then does not like their job and goes home, the company gets a prorated refund. If the person stays more than five years, they get a green card automatically and are free…

The unstated premise behind your comment, and indeed this entire debate, is that there is only so much "room" for immigration in the US. This leads us to arguments about how large the quota should be, how it should be divided, etc. This is a flawed assumption. The US has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration, and on average every single immigrant we accept would increase the size of our economy. Immigrants are…

A rather obvious premise is that there is some limit of immigration that is in the best interest of current US citizens.

Average human brains are not a scarce resource as seen by all practical evidence - globally, they're being manufactured at near-record numbers, they're a sustainable resource that we can make more in the future, they're not fully used (9 million of them unemployed) and we're okay with deliberately throwing away many of them (e.g. incarcerating 2 million).

In addition, there is significant unequality between the regions of the world. Simply equalizing the global wealth per capita would be a very unwanted change for most of the first world, simply being pushed down to the average would be a catastrophic decrease. Equal opportunities for everyone worldwide would also hurt current first world citizens, who right now do have significantly above average opportunities. You can charge an order of magnitude more for the same job or service simply because you are here and "they" are not. It is rather obvious that there are some practical reasons why they would vote to preserve the status quo.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#246

Post by DINKDINK »

tankerdude wrote: post #233

Time and time again, this type of article pops up. Time and time again, it's about economics, and the solution has ALWAYS been about economics. It's just that the companies that the political machines don't want to talk about it. Like I've said in the past, and it is a simple solution that would make people like AeroFS happy is to have an economic one: Your H1-B employee must be paid in the >95% (or more) percentile…

What about the (cost to hire a local) + (costs of employing that local person annually) = (cost to hire a H1B) + (costs of employing that H1B person).

The cost to hire that h1B person is going to be much higher and hence the lower wage.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#247

Post by sliverstorm »

halflings wrote: post #192
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area" Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one. You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. As…

Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst.

Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country. We aren't the Borg, but we would like to see you learn at least a little English, accept your new country, and generally participate.

You are already most of the way there- you speak English. Your parent is reacting to communities of people who immigrate to the US, learn not one word of English, turn inwards and attempt to create Little Elbonia, including attempting to completely reshape government in Elbonia's image.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#248

Post by seanflyon »

stretchwithme wrote: post #118
hnnewguy wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area, provided you can pay But this is precisely what defines an economic shortage. There's no shortage of anything , if the price offered is right. I wonder if the discrepancy between supply and demand for labour in the Valley has to do with the fact that, unlike most other industries[1], so many companies aren't making money, and hence can't pay, but still demand m…

Definition of shortage on Google: a state or situation in which something needed cannot be obtained in sufficient amounts. Doesn't mention anything about not paying the market price. Those not willing to pay the market price can't buy a loaf of bread. It is prices that incentivize people to provide what we need. And when the bubble pops, prices will tell people the opposite. Either way, its just a market condition th…

Many companies are unable to obtain programmers in sufficient amounts precisely because they cannot afford to pay market rates.

If we had a bread shortage, some would be unable to afford the high market price of bread, while it would still be available to those who could afford it.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#249

Post by dllthomas »

PeterisP wrote: post #245
bradleybuda wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unstated premise behind your comment, and indeed this entire debate, is that there is only so much "room" for immigration in the US. This leads us to arguments about how large the quota should be, how it should be divided, etc. This is a flawed assumption. The US has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration, and on average every single immigrant we accept would increase the size of our economy. Immigrants are…

A rather obvious premise is that there is some limit of immigration that is in the best interest of current US citizens . Average human brains are not a scarce resource as seen by all practical evidence - globally, they're being manufactured at near-record numbers, they're a sustainable resource that we can make more in the future, they're not fully used (9 million of them unemployed) and we're okay with deliberately…

Arguably the incarcerated, and more tenuously then unemployed, are not "average human brains". I'm not sure I'd actually argue that but it seems worth addressing.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#250

Post by exelius »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #221
halflings wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area" Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one. You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. As…

>You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. No, the system just needs to be reformed. And I've seen the right reform proposal often enough to be circulating it myself: * The government can give out N visas in an auction. Firms bid via legally-binding salary offers. The N highest salaries bid…

> * The government can give out N visas in an auction. Firms bid via legally-binding salary offers. The N highest salaries bid get the visas, and the government takes a small additional payroll tax as the only fee.

This would be doomed to fail. Professional services firms can outbid basically everyone because they can turn around and bill that person out at 5x their salary.

The visas will never adhere to the workers for one simple reason: the visa process exists to benefit the companies, not the workers. The workers are not US citizens and have no leverage with the US government. The visa programs only exist because the US-based companies want them - and those companies DO have leverage with the US government.

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