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The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

nytimes.com

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Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#151

Post by JoeAltmaier »

tormeh wrote: post #147
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If countries were people, then 2) would matter. As it is, real folks pay to have their children succeed. I would guess that many aren't as interested in Where (home or abroad) as When. So its not all bad or wrong.

No no, many countries pay to have their citizens educated. The citizens often do not pay anything at all except in taxes. This means you can get the good (education) without paying for it (taxes) if you emigrate after you get your degree.

Sure, I understood that.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#152

Post by sanswork »

Karunamon wrote: post #145
sanswork wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How will the trucks refuel? Full serve gas stations. >How will they handle loading and unloading? Do long haul drivers typically load/unload themselves these days? I would have thought that would have been the task of the warehouse staff on either end. >How will they handle inclement weather? Probably better than human driven trucks why would you think they couldn't? >What is the insurance liability for putting them…

Going to disagree with you there on inclement weather. Getting a self-driving system to work on sunny days and clear nights when there's an otherwise clean view of the road and surroundings is one thing, and that's the challenge I see most people working on right now. Now try the same thing in the middle of winter, the equivalent of visual noise is obstructing both the road and the surroundings. People are good at pi…

People are horrible at driving in any kind of bad weather. They speed through foggy conditions where they can't see 50 feet in front of them. They drive too fast or erratically on icy or snowy conditions, or they just flat out don't know how to handle the conditions and swerve/oversteer.

If people were any good at it there would be no increase in crashes during winter, foggy or wet weather conditions.

Self driving vehicles will have the same issues with seeing in the visual spectrum in bad weather as humans but they will also have the advantage of IR for example in knowing if something is in the fog/snow in front of them and how to react to that.

You also remove the emotional component. Humans in really bad weather tend to either ignore it(which is risky) or drive scared(which leads to over reactions which leads to accidents). For the second case things like over correcting, slamming on breaks, swerving, etc all lead to tons of accidents that are easily avoidable.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#153

Post by mcguire »

tombrossman wrote: post #95
twothamendment wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You started down the right road. Much of their pay has to do with how they are paid. There are trucking companies that don't pay drivers to fuel the truck. Do you know how long that takes? It isn't like it is an optional task - that truck won't move without fuel. I know a driver who spends 2-6 hours waiting to be unloaded. He doesn't get paid for that time but isn't free to leave the truck because when the loading do…

The issue is that most drivers incorrectly assume they are in the weakest position for any given scenario. They absorb delays as if it were their own fault and falsify logs to compensate. Many drivers even absorbed the reimbursable toll costs on a route because they couldn't match the ticket times to their falsified logs. They are afraid to log as 'on duty not driving', which is how they legally should be doing it. S…

"'this system is broken, allow it to fail and cover your ass by documenting everything'."

This advice is sound in more industries than trucking.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#154

Post by mcguire »

anifow wrote: post #117
the_ancient wrote: post #21

It is not a matter of paying "more" but changing how they pay Most Truckers are paid by the mile... So if your sitting in traffic no pay (next time your stopped in traffic look around, how many semi's are sitting with you, most of those drivers are doing it for free) Then there is load and unload time, which for some companies is non-paid, other is a nominal flat rate of like $35 that could take up hours of your day.…

I disagree. An hourly wage is a very special payment system which requires some kind of foreman to be sustainable. Otherwise, the labour industry tends to drift towards inefficiencies that allow them to claim money for less work. This is classic agency risk, where the incentives are not aligned, and heading down this path often entails major bureaucracies to try and keep everyone honest (like time clocks and punch ca…

"Paying more by the mile absorbs the costs of refuelling and traffic, without giving any driver an incentive to waste time..."

It also gives the driver incentives to drive too long, too fast, to reduce maintenance, and to take other shortcuts that cause longer-term and safety problems. (Fortunately, the industry has done pretty well at pushing liability onto the drivers.)

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#155

Post by mcguire »

_yosefk wrote: post #121
crdoconnor wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is classic agency risk, where the incentives are not aligned Paying by the mile is even worse. How much incentive does the company have to make unloading and loading more efficient when they get it for free?

If drivers spend much time loading and unloading, and not getting paid, the amount paid per mile required to attract drivers will rise.

That has not been the case, historically. Time spent "on duty, not driving" has been a major complaint for decades and is one of the reasons duty schedules are ridiculous.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#156

Post by gaadd33 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #134
gaadd33 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What parts of the country don't have rail as an option? Pretty much the entire US is covered in rail, especially around population centers since that's why many developed there in the first place. Most people don't get tractor trailer deliveries to their door so a driverless truck wouldn't have an advantage there.

That's pretty much a tautology - cities exist because trains went there. I live in a state covered with extinct towns, because the tracks went another way back in the day. But sadly those tracks are bicycle trails or even roads now. Eminent domain space is problematical; rails always go interesting places; tracks have largely disappeared from the landscape by having their route repurposed.

Right but I'm curious if, as the GP claimed, there were any population centers in the US not well connected via rail. It's possible that when the interstates were built, that they created new population centers not connected by rail but I'm unaware of any. Do you know of any?

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#157

Post by zo1 »

crdoconnor wrote: post #122
zo1 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would never happen. People in certain countries get way too many free things and benefits, and are used to much higher standards of living. They'd be up in arms every time they saw an "immigrant" using it, or if an immigrant reduces the value of labor. It's really unfortunate because the only reason most people are against immigration, deep down, is that they fear they will be usurped by cheap labor. And that is only…

>It's really unfortunate because the only reason most people are against immigration, deep down, is that they fear they will be usurped by cheap labor. There's many good reasons to be against immigration apart from that: 1) It lets companies play third world workers off against first world workers. We know that they tell the first world workers to shape up (i.e. work overtime; accept abuse & wage theft) or have their…

All the things you describe are symptoms of the fact that their is a wage-differential caused by trade/immigration barriers. That's why I said it has to get worse before it'll get better. Even if the current barriers create problems... More barriers will just make the subsequent correction more catastrophic for the individuals involved.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#158

Post by mcguire »

x0x0 wrote: post #32
polarix wrote: post #5

> But corporate America has become so parsimonious about paying workers outside the executive suite that meaningful wage increases may seem an unacceptable affront. In this environment, it may be easier to say “There is a shortage of skilled workers” than “We aren’t paying our workers enough,” even if, in economic terms, those come down to the same thing.

And it's not like trucking is a good job. For that princely (!!!) $41k / year, you are often away from home. I'd bet you don't get comped for all the meals you eat on the road either, so there goes a bunch of money spent eating out, even if it is just at truck stop diners. If you have a family, and and your partner has a job -- as he or she must, given that shit salary -- knock $4-$10k/year off for daycare as well. I…

"...truckers have to choose between keeping their jobs or obeying safety regulations..."

One of the most important tips I found in an older driver training manual I saw once was to buy a device that plugs into your radio and to record every conversation with dispatchers. When the company gives the driver grief about not breaking the rules, playing those recordings for the company driver safety officer was an important tactic.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#159

Post by mcguire »

VLM wrote: post #119
sliverstorm wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be considered a pretty good job, from what my father tells me. I believe what it boiled down to was, the pay was good, given that the qualifications are low.

Your supervisor is 1000 miles away, you can listen to whatever you want on the radio, no one else has control over the HVAC controls, its not as physically relaxing as being a programmer (which might be good?) but its incredibly physically easier than virtually all other craftsperson / labor blue collar jobs, the constant change in scenery is almost better than one of those C-level corner window office jobs, the empl…

"...simply refused to drive in snow and hated driving in big cities. So he didn't."

Any chance you could hook me up with your uncle? I'm interested in changing careers and am moderately financially secure. :-)

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#160

Post by thrownaway2424 »

_delirium wrote: post #143
thrownaway2424 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the entire 710 just needs to be demolished. They should be moving those containers out of the port on trains, but they've got it backwards. They move the containers out of the port on trucks, to intermodal terminals inland where they get switched to trains. Completely backwards. If they just punched the railroads through all the way to Long Beach then they wouldn't need those trucks on 710 humping boxes to…

> If they just punched the railroads through Isn't that what the Alameda Corridor project did? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alameda_Corridor

Yes, but they still don't have the capacity commensurate with the number of boats offloading at the ports.
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