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The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

nytimes.com

141–150 of 179 posts

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No kidding. I'll get downvoted for this but the Hacker News demographic hasn't spent much time on the road. Try driving down 710 toward Long Beach. Last time I lived down there, tons of trucks, tiny lanes, uneven pavement, completely insane. I want to see a self-driving car navigate Manhattan or Brooklyn during the day, normal driving rules do not apply there, New York drivers mean business ;-)

Sure, but the entire 710 just needs to be demolished. They should be moving those containers out of the port on trains, but they've got it backwards. They move the containers out of the port on trucks, to intermodal terminals inland where they get switched to trains. Completely backwards. If they just punched the railroads through all the way to Long Beach then they wouldn't need those trucks on 710 humping boxes to…

I haven't been there in over 10 years but it was the most direct way by car to get to Long Beach from say downtown Los Angeles. It was strange to see that industrial wasteland along 710. I tried to find a shortcut through there once and ended up on a distant, post-apocalyptic planet ;-)

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#142
More star journalism from the NY Times:

"In this environment, it may be easier to say 'There is a shortage of skilled workers' than 'We aren’t paying our workers enough,' even if, in economic terms, those come down to the same thing."

No, those aren't necessarily the same thing. Even if there was a surplus of licensed truck drivers to meet the new demand, it does not mean that the sole reason trucking companies don't wish to hire more workers is because it will cost too much in wages. I suspect the reason they don't hire more truckers to fill existing empty truck seats is for the following reasons:

1) Every truck runs with a huge damage liability (life insurance, lost goods, rebates to customers). A string of truck crashes from the increased volume would rapidly eat into the profits of more business.

2) Operating costs: gas, computer systems, dispatchers, parts, labor. It may be cheaper to raise prices on existing routes, and leave a few trucks empty.

Here's another snippit:

"It’s not an ideal job for everyone. There is no question that trucking is hard work, necessitating long hours and longer stretches away from family. But that’s why it is well compensated, at least in comparison to other jobs not requiring college degrees."

Nobody is paid because the job is hard and lonely. Oil workers in North Dakota aren't paid 250k a year because it's "5 times" harder than a desk job of 50k. Companies pay workers based on what the company expects its customers will pay. No matter how hard the job is, if the market doesn't want to pay higher prices to move goods via truck (which is what would happen if you rose trucker's salaries to 50k instead of 40k, for example), then the companies employing the truckers won't want to take on those higher wage costs.

So TLDR, if you feel you can run a more cost-efficient trucking company, then go fucking do it.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No kidding. I'll get downvoted for this but the Hacker News demographic hasn't spent much time on the road. Try driving down 710 toward Long Beach. Last time I lived down there, tons of trucks, tiny lanes, uneven pavement, completely insane. I want to see a self-driving car navigate Manhattan or Brooklyn during the day, normal driving rules do not apply there, New York drivers mean business ;-)

Sure, but the entire 710 just needs to be demolished. They should be moving those containers out of the port on trains, but they've got it backwards. They move the containers out of the port on trucks, to intermodal terminals inland where they get switched to trains. Completely backwards. If they just punched the railroads through all the way to Long Beach then they wouldn't need those trucks on 710 humping boxes to…

> If they just punched the railroads through

Isn't that what the Alameda Corridor project did? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alameda_Corridor

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If drivers spend much time loading and unloading, and not getting paid, the amount paid per mile required to attract drivers will rise.

What seems more likely, actually, is that you will get Akerlof's classic lemon market - due to the information asymmetry of paying by the mile. The employer knows how much value the driver's gonna contribute for the money they pay, but the potential drivers aren't at all sure how much income they'll get paid for their time/effort. They basically only have hearsay from other drivers/ex-drivers to go on. Furthermore, s…

The market for lemons doesn't really apply here, because a lemon market requires a supply that is heavily weighted toward worthless goods, to drag the average down to 0 as the "best" opportunities are withdrawn from market.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#145
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your optimism, but realistically self driving trucks on American highways are a long way off. How will the trucks refuel? How will they handle loading and unloading? How will they handle inclement weather? What is the insurance liability for putting them on public roads? Who will be sued when a driverless truck crashes into another car (at fault or not)? Even Mercedes says in that article, "the Highway Pilot s…

>How will the trucks refuel? Full serve gas stations. >How will they handle loading and unloading? Do long haul drivers typically load/unload themselves these days? I would have thought that would have been the task of the warehouse staff on either end. >How will they handle inclement weather? Probably better than human driven trucks why would you think they couldn't? >What is the insurance liability for putting them…

Going to disagree with you there on inclement weather. Getting a self-driving system to work on sunny days and clear nights when there's an otherwise clean view of the road and surroundings is one thing, and that's the challenge I see most people working on right now.

Now try the same thing in the middle of winter, the equivalent of visual noise is obstructing both the road and the surroundings. People are good at picking out patterns in this condition, especially if they've been driving for a while, computers notsomuch.

Sure, it's a matter of the tech advancing, but solving the second problem is harder than solving the first.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#146
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a business owner raises wages, he solves his labor problem but spends more money and reduces profit. If instead he complains about a labor shortage, then maybe politicians will pass a law allowing more immigration and he will be able to lower his wages and increase his profit. It's beneficial for business owners for there to be a general belief in a labor shortage but it is not beneficial for people to believe the…

We wouldn't have this conversation, if immigration was sane in the first place. Ie let anyone in. It's such a waste of human labour.

Culture is capital. The degree of social trust and respect for property needed to create a wealthy society is an historical anomaly. If we didn't have borders, the whole world would be the third world.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's really unfortunate because the only reason most people are against immigration, deep down, is that they fear they will be usurped by cheap labor. There's many good reasons to be against immigration apart from that: 1) It lets companies play third world workers off against first world workers. We know that they tell the first world workers to shape up (i.e. work overtime; accept abuse & wage theft) or have their…

If countries were people, then 2) would matter. As it is, real folks pay to have their children succeed. I would guess that many aren't as interested in Where (home or abroad) as When. So its not all bad or wrong.

No no, many countries pay to have their citizens educated. The citizens often do not pay anything at all except in taxes. This means you can get the good (education) without paying for it (taxes) if you emigrate after you get your degree.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#148

It is not a matter of paying "more" but changing how they pay Most Truckers are paid by the mile... So if your sitting in traffic no pay (next time your stopped in traffic look around, how many semi's are sitting with you, most of those drivers are doing it for free) Then there is load and unload time, which for some companies is non-paid, other is a nominal flat rate of like $35 that could take up hours of your day.…

How you pay for work performed is a complex matter. It's one that Adam Smith covers (as he does most topics) at length in Wealth of Nations. In particular he warns of the tendency to pitch compensation terms such that workers are overincentivized to work, reducing their overall productivity and burning out faster.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm

(I'm adding some paragraph breaks to Smith's text, this is a single paragraph in the original. Emphasis added as well.)

"The liberal reward of labour, as it encourages the propagation, so it increases the industry of the common people. The wages of labour are the encouragement of industry, which, like every other human quality, improves in proportion to the encouragement it receives. A plentiful subsistence increases the bodily strength of the labourer, and the comfortable hope of bettering his condition, and of ending his days, perhaps, in ease and plenty, animates him to exert that strength to the utmost. Where wages are high, accordingly, we shall always find the workmen more active, diligent, and expeditious, than where they are low; in England, for example, than in Scotland; in the neighbourhood of great towns, than in remote country places.

"Some workmen, indeed, when they can earn in four days what will maintain them through the week, will be idle the other three. This, however, is by no means the case with the greater part. Workmen, on the contrary, when they are liberally paid by the piece, are very apt to overwork themselves, and to ruin their health and constitution in a few years. A carpenter in London, and in some other places, is not supposed to last in his utmost vigour above eight years. Something of the same kind happens in many other trades, in which the workmen are paid by the piece; as they generally are in manufactures, and even in country labour, wherever wages are higher than ordinary. Almost every class of artificers is subject to some peculiar infirmity occasioned by excessive application to their peculiar species of work. Ramuzzini, an eminent Italian physician, has written a particular book concerning such diseases.

"We do not reckon our soldiers the most industrious set of people among us; yet when soldiers have been employed in some particular sorts of work, and liberally paid by the piece, their officers have frequently been obliged to stipulate with the undertaker, that they should not be allowed to earn above a certain sum every day, according to the rate at which they were paid. Till this stipulation was made, mutual emulation, and the desire of greater gain, frequently prompted them to overwork themselves, and to hurt their health by excessive labour.

"Excessive application, during four days of the week, is frequently the real cause of the idleness of the other three, so much and so loudly complained of. Great labour, either of mind or body, continued for several days together is, in most men, naturally followed by a great desire of relaxation, which, if not restrained by force, or by some strong necessity, is almost irresistible. It is the call of nature, which requires to be relieved by some indulgence, sometimes of ease only, but sometimes too of dissipation and diversion. If it is not complied with, the consequences are often dangerous and sometimes fatal, and such as almost always, sooner or later, bring on the peculiar infirmity of the trade.

"If masters would always listen to the dictates of reason and humanity, they have frequently occasion rather to moderate, than to animate the application of many of their workmen. It will be found, I believe, in every sort of trade, that the man who works so moderately, as to be able to work constantly, not only preserves his health the longest, but, in the course of the year, executes the greatest quantity of work."

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#149
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for sharing your experience, it sounds like a tough job just to do the job right. do you think the system will get un-broken before we start seeing things like automated trucks? http://www.vox.com/2014/6/3/5775482/why-trucks-will-drive-th...

There is a lot to automate, for example shifting the trailer tandem axles or the 'fifth wheel' to more evenly distribute the weight per axle. I don't know how an automated truck would handle driving across Wyoming with tens of thousands of big tumbleweeds blowing across the road, would the collision-avoidance system be triggered? A human knows what they are and that you just keep going full-speed. Snow is another iss…

You could certainly keep "control centers" with a few of those experienced drivers in them, where decisions for what the automated vehicle is to do in low-confidence situations get "escalated" to a human, along with the relevant sense data.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#150
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What seems more likely, actually, is that you will get Akerlof's classic lemon market - due to the information asymmetry of paying by the mile. The employer knows how much value the driver's gonna contribute for the money they pay, but the potential drivers aren't at all sure how much income they'll get paid for their time/effort. They basically only have hearsay from other drivers/ex-drivers to go on. Furthermore, s…

The market for lemons doesn't really apply here, because a lemon market requires a supply that is heavily weighted toward worthless goods, to drag the average down to 0 as the "best" opportunities are withdrawn from market.

Assume labor is the currency and the good is cash. If a majority of trucking employers give employees a mediocre or poor deal, then the supply of trucking jobs in the aggregate delivers poor value for the required labor input, in comparison to other lines of employment. Good firms either go out of business (due to being undercut) or retain their drivers, such that there are few openings at good firms.

In an ideal world good firms would increase their market share, but doing that requires satisfying trucking consumers and they want their goods shipped as cheaply and quickly as possible. So the interests of consumers and suppliers (of trucking services, ie drivers) are not very well aligned. I don't know what can be done about this; as a consumer I have absolutely no clue which hauling companies handle the goods I purchase, nor do I have any clue how much of a good's price consists of shipping costs. So I can't really vote with my dollars to let store owners know that I'm willing to pay a little more to support trucking companies that treat their employees well.

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