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The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

nytimes.com

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Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#111

Post by venomsnake »

l33tbro wrote: post #43

Hmmm, why are we still talking about truck drivers exactly? The trucking industry is about to tank hard. Mercedes demo'd its first driverless truck a couple of weeks ago (!). Yes, there will be specialists drivers sure and niche companies. But the day of the interstate road train will be done shortly. The biggest new niche in my mind will be vehicle security. These trucks will be flying solo across the nation - unman…

You just need some human support drone style. Trucking will be 90% automated an 10% rc

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#112

Post by the_ancient »

smm2000 wrote: post #83
the_ancient wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No the article says they can get the required government CDL in 6 weeks, Passing a CDL test is not much harder than a Reg Test, and many states have had people convicted of working with the schools in a Cash for Licence scams, the larges was in IL a few years back where a good % of all CDL's issued by the state of IL were simply paid for. It take a hell of alot longer to become a proficient trucker. Long time trucker…

The fact that insurance companies are fine with entrusting 80000 pounds truck to somebody who got CDL after six weeks tells me that it's adequate training and accident rate of new drivers is not much higher than accident rate of experienced drivers.

lol suurrrreeeeeee

What that should really tell you is Trucking companies is that paying a 6 week driver peanuts + the extra insurance is still less than paying an experienced driver an acceptable wage.

With the Raise of "No Fault" States many trucking companies are also Self Insuring, since they only ever have to pay for the damages of their own equipment, which if it does not effect the operation of the the truck they will not fix anyway.

But sure continue believing that a 6 week driver is just as good as a 15+ year driver

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#113

Post by zo1 »

eru wrote: post #96
crassus2 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a business owner raises wages, he solves his labor problem but spends more money and reduces profit. If instead he complains about a labor shortage, then maybe politicians will pass a law allowing more immigration and he will be able to lower his wages and increase his profit. It's beneficial for business owners for there to be a general belief in a labor shortage but it is not beneficial for people to believe the…

We wouldn't have this conversation, if immigration was sane in the first place. Ie let anyone in. It's such a waste of human labour.

Would never happen. People in certain countries get way too many free things and benefits, and are used to much higher standards of living. They'd be up in arms every time they saw an "immigrant" using it, or if an immigrant reduces the value of labor.

It's really unfortunate because the only reason most people are against immigration, deep down, is that they fear they will be usurped by cheap labor. And that is only a problem because we haven't allowed free-trade and free-flow of migrants around the world from the start. Instead, we built up barriers, and we've created dams. Of course people are now going to complain when the flood gates open and a valley gets washed out.

It has to get worse, before it gets better.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#114

Post by the_ancient »

EpicEng wrote: post #81
the_ancient wrote: post #21

It is not a matter of paying "more" but changing how they pay Most Truckers are paid by the mile... So if your sitting in traffic no pay (next time your stopped in traffic look around, how many semi's are sitting with you, most of those drivers are doing it for free) Then there is load and unload time, which for some companies is non-paid, other is a nominal flat rate of like $35 that could take up hours of your day.…

If I take a contract job which pays $X / deliverable then I may end up doing some "free" work as well if something comes up that I hadn't accounted for. Same goes for my day job when I work past 6 (exempt, of course). Not all jobs are hourly. Why should this change for truckers and no one else? Are you proposing that all jobs should pay for every minute of work? I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, but I'm intere…

First and fore most I am not talking about "contract jobs" these are not 1099 contractors, these are W2 employees, and they should not be classified as exempt for over time, or be allowed to paid per mile IMO. These are Blue Collar jobs and should be treated like a Fork Truck Driver, or a Factory worker, not as a Laywer or even in SysAdmin or Developer.

True Contract Jobs, i.e owner operators, should be paid based on however they draw up their contracts, that is one business employing another business and it outside the conversation of employment law

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#115

Post by the_ancient »

olalonde wrote: post #94
A_COMPUTER wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression from riding along with my parents is that every day is filled with mostly improvisation. From dealing with bad, aggressive drivers who will get you and themselves killed, to rapidly changing road and weather conditions, to widely disparate entrances and loading docks, inaccurate GPS, etc. it just seems like the times that the self-driving would benefit are so infrequent with regular cross-country drivin…

Maybe they will initially be used for long straight lines on highways and the human drivers will only be responsible for the "last mile" drive.

I fully expect the interstate system to be the first fully automated road network...

You drive up the ramp, either in a truck or a car, and at some point the on board computer takes over, when you get to your preprogrammed exit number the car/truck gives the driver back control once it is on the exit ramp, if the driver does not acknowledge control the car automatically decelerates and pulls off the road way

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#116

Post by VLM »

olalonde wrote: post #94
A_COMPUTER wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression from riding along with my parents is that every day is filled with mostly improvisation. From dealing with bad, aggressive drivers who will get you and themselves killed, to rapidly changing road and weather conditions, to widely disparate entrances and loading docks, inaccurate GPS, etc. it just seems like the times that the self-driving would benefit are so infrequent with regular cross-country drivin…

Maybe they will initially be used for long straight lines on highways and the human drivers will only be responsible for the "last mile" drive.

We call that a "train". Steel wheels on steel rails just works better over long distances. Then trucks to haul from station to individual loading docks. I also live about 25 miles from a small port that on rare occasion does get container freight traffic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_freight_transport

Lots of existing infrastructure for this, cheaper to use than to put AI in each truck.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#117

Post by anifow »

the_ancient wrote: post #21

It is not a matter of paying "more" but changing how they pay Most Truckers are paid by the mile... So if your sitting in traffic no pay (next time your stopped in traffic look around, how many semi's are sitting with you, most of those drivers are doing it for free) Then there is load and unload time, which for some companies is non-paid, other is a nominal flat rate of like $35 that could take up hours of your day.…

I disagree.

An hourly wage is a very special payment system which requires some kind of foreman to be sustainable. Otherwise, the labour industry tends to drift towards inefficiencies that allow them to claim money for less work. This is classic agency risk, where the incentives are not aligned, and heading down this path often entails major bureaucracies to try and keep everyone honest (like time clocks and punch cards, a "boss" looking over you, etc).

Simply paying more within the existing structure makes perfect sense. It will actually have a disproportionate effect on recruitment when some of the most efficient drivers start bragging about making $160,000 a year driving trucks (this is one of the big drivers of immigration by the way. Compared to poorer nations, the streets are paved in gold in the USA, and some lucky immigrants find shovels to dig it up. Unfortunately, most people who come never get a shovel so it remains but a dream...).

Paying more by the mile absorbs the costs of refuelling and traffic, without giving any driver an incentive to waste time when, for example refuelling the truck. So rational truckers will go to gas stations that are more efficient and will get out of there as soon as they can.

Where the trucker has no agency, however, it could make sense to pay by the hour. For example, since loading is in the hands of another group as soon as the truck docks in, and since it can vary quite a bit based on warehouse, better that the driver is paid for time sitting around. You could argue that the driver's incentive is to rush the loaders, but I doubt they have any coercion in that process. So better that the shipping company have an incentive to make loadings as fast possible through influence over choice of warehouse, penalties to warehouses for slow loadings, etc.

I've never really thought about this industry before, but thinking about it now makes it sound very interesting!

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#118

Post by VLM »

x0x0 wrote: post #32
polarix wrote: post #5

> But corporate America has become so parsimonious about paying workers outside the executive suite that meaningful wage increases may seem an unacceptable affront. In this environment, it may be easier to say “There is a shortage of skilled workers” than “We aren’t paying our workers enough,” even if, in economic terms, those come down to the same thing.

And it's not like trucking is a good job. For that princely (!!!) $41k / year, you are often away from home. I'd bet you don't get comped for all the meals you eat on the road either, so there goes a bunch of money spent eating out, even if it is just at truck stop diners. If you have a family, and and your partner has a job -- as he or she must, given that shit salary -- knock $4-$10k/year off for daycare as well. I…

"given that shit salary"

This feeds painfully into the "HN is an echo chamber of rich yuppie coastal urban programmers out of touch with reality". Its roughly a median income for Americans. About half of all jobs are worse and about half of all jobs are better.

"choose between keeping their jobs or obeying safety regulations"

Isn't this like every blue collar job, ever? In my limited student years experience working thru school its a blue collar mgmt technique. So in programming if there's a woman or a black guy we tell lies about "not a cultural fit" or whatever other BS. But in blue collar orgs if your boss wants to fire you, you'll get fired either for not using safety gear or taking too long aka fired for using safety gear. In both cases it doesn't really matter, if you're not the same gender / orientation / religion / race as your boss you're going to end up equally unemployed, although with different lies told if you're white collar or blue collar. It doesn't really mean anything at all on the surface.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#119

Post by VLM »

sliverstorm wrote: post #42
x0x0 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's not like trucking is a good job. For that princely (!!!) $41k / year, you are often away from home. I'd bet you don't get comped for all the meals you eat on the road either, so there goes a bunch of money spent eating out, even if it is just at truck stop diners. If you have a family, and and your partner has a job -- as he or she must, given that shit salary -- knock $4-$10k/year off for daycare as well. I…

It used to be considered a pretty good job, from what my father tells me. I believe what it boiled down to was, the pay was good, given that the qualifications are low.

Your supervisor is 1000 miles away, you can listen to whatever you want on the radio, no one else has control over the HVAC controls, its not as physically relaxing as being a programmer (which might be good?) but its incredibly physically easier than virtually all other craftsperson / labor blue collar jobs, the constant change in scenery is almost better than one of those C-level corner window office jobs, the employers are fairly interchangeable so the best drivers "naturally" tend to pair up with the best employers and there's massive flexibility in where you live because there's jobs everywhere across the country (across the world?). Its both more introverted and more extroverted than programming work, varies greatly thru the day, and some like that variety.

Sometimes its interesting from an alternative history perspective to think about what to do if you were born into a world without computers. Or if you don't have the "knack" for hard science-ish work. You could live a lot worse than driving a truck around all day.

Also depending on your risk tolerance there are higher level certs, if you want to drive tank cars full of liquid hydrogen or plutonium around all day or whatever. Less hazmat jobs, but marginally better pay and working conditions.

To some extent, more than most jobs, you choose what you want to do. My semi-retired uncle who took up trucking in the 90s simply refused to drive in snow and hated driving in big cities. So he didn't. It really was that simple. There are very few other jobs where the market is so flexible that you can simply do what you want, when you want. If you want, you can get a truck driving job where you carry two beer barrels at a time uphill both ways into bars, but as an old semi-disabled guy he chose to haul five ton machine tools so in his entire career he never personally lifted anything heavier than a bottled water. If he wanted to spend a week at the grand canyon instead of being paid, he simply did so.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#120

Post by crdoconnor »

anifow wrote: post #117
the_ancient wrote: post #21

It is not a matter of paying "more" but changing how they pay Most Truckers are paid by the mile... So if your sitting in traffic no pay (next time your stopped in traffic look around, how many semi's are sitting with you, most of those drivers are doing it for free) Then there is load and unload time, which for some companies is non-paid, other is a nominal flat rate of like $35 that could take up hours of your day.…

I disagree. An hourly wage is a very special payment system which requires some kind of foreman to be sustainable. Otherwise, the labour industry tends to drift towards inefficiencies that allow them to claim money for less work. This is classic agency risk, where the incentives are not aligned, and heading down this path often entails major bureaucracies to try and keep everyone honest (like time clocks and punch ca…

>This is classic agency risk, where the incentives are not aligned

Paying by the mile is even worse. How much incentive does the company have to make unloading and loading more efficient when they get it for free?

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