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The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

nytimes.com

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Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#81

Post by EpicEng »

the_ancient wrote: post #21

It is not a matter of paying "more" but changing how they pay Most Truckers are paid by the mile... So if your sitting in traffic no pay (next time your stopped in traffic look around, how many semi's are sitting with you, most of those drivers are doing it for free) Then there is load and unload time, which for some companies is non-paid, other is a nominal flat rate of like $35 that could take up hours of your day.…

If I take a contract job which pays $X / deliverable then I may end up doing some "free" work as well if something comes up that I hadn't accounted for. Same goes for my day job when I work past 6 (exempt, of course).

Not all jobs are hourly. Why should this change for truckers and no one else? Are you proposing that all jobs should pay for every minute of work? I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, but I'm interested in your reasoning.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#82

Post by smm2000 »

georgemcbay wrote: post #76
msane wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think automation will happen sooner than we expect. 5-8 years seems likely to me. There is a hurdle with interstate trucking, where some states will lag behind in allowing it and providing the required bureaucratic support. But it is already technologically possible, if not yet a fully developed product. It just takes one company to get it allowed in one state and start doing it, the others will follow. Self drivin…

Parking shouldn't be a difficult task for a self-driving truck; but I suspect there will be a 'driver' along for the ride well after the task is mostly automated, just to deal with exceptional circumstances (eg. flash flood has made road impassable in some way the automated truck cannot deal with) and also to act as a security guard so nobody robs the robo-truck.

I doubt security guard is really required, at least in US, Europe and most other developed countries. Container is closed and it's easy to install device that calls police in case it's opened mid-way. Also most trucks transport goods that are difficult to steal and sell profitably (low price, high weight - think groceries, furniture, etc).

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#83

Post by smm2000 »

the_ancient wrote: post #38
thrownaway2424 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound "harder than you'd think", it sounds about as hard as you'd think. I'm sure that particular maneuver could be taught to the most apt students over a weekend, and as the article points out anyone can learn this skill in 6 weeks. If the people they get in trucker school have a hard time learning these things, that's just another indicator that they need to put more money on the table to attract bette…

No the article says they can get the required government CDL in 6 weeks, Passing a CDL test is not much harder than a Reg Test, and many states have had people convicted of working with the schools in a Cash for Licence scams, the larges was in IL a few years back where a good % of all CDL's issued by the state of IL were simply paid for. It take a hell of alot longer to become a proficient trucker. Long time trucker…

The fact that insurance companies are fine with entrusting 80000 pounds truck to somebody who got CDL after six weeks tells me that it's adequate training and accident rate of new drivers is not much higher than accident rate of experienced drivers.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#84

Post by A_COMPUTER »

msane wrote: post #75
A_COMPUTER wrote: post #62

My semi-retired parents were lured in by the claims of making upwards of 80K a year if you worked hard enough. They did it for about three years and quit with more debt than when they started. You can only make decent money if you own your own rig, which costs as much as a house. Trucking is heavily regulated, but in ways that dump all the problems on the drivers. You are in competition with other drivers, which pret…

I think automation will happen sooner than we expect. 5-8 years seems likely to me. There is a hurdle with interstate trucking, where some states will lag behind in allowing it and providing the required bureaucratic support. But it is already technologically possible, if not yet a fully developed product. It just takes one company to get it allowed in one state and start doing it, the others will follow. Self drivin…

My impression from riding along with my parents is that every day is filled with mostly improvisation. From dealing with bad, aggressive drivers who will get you and themselves killed, to rapidly changing road and weather conditions, to widely disparate entrances and loading docks, inaccurate GPS, etc. it just seems like the times that the self-driving would benefit are so infrequent with regular cross-country driving and delivery. This seems so different than a self-driving car that mostly is going to take you to and from work and the grocery store, etc.

There is also the liability issue, I mentioned that things are rigged to dump the hassles on the drivers and this is one of them. You're economically pressured to falsify log data, so when you nod off and accidentally kill some people, your employer is off the hook. A nice working self-driving truck would reduce fatalities caused by gross driver error, but I guess it would put the trucking company back on the hook in the cases where a catastrophe did happen. In the short term self-driving vehicles might be undesirable to some companies because it might eliminate their ability to shove negative externalities onto a third party (the drivers.)

self-driving commercial trucks will happen, I just think 5-8 years is not likely.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#85

Post by thaumasiotes »

A_COMPUTER wrote: post #62

My semi-retired parents were lured in by the claims of making upwards of 80K a year if you worked hard enough. They did it for about three years and quit with more debt than when they started. You can only make decent money if you own your own rig, which costs as much as a house. Trucking is heavily regulated, but in ways that dump all the problems on the drivers. You are in competition with other drivers, which pret…

For many purposes, you can consider trains to be automated trucks.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#86

Post by [deleted] »

sanswork wrote: post #67
tdicola wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your optimism, but realistically self driving trucks on American highways are a long way off. How will the trucks refuel? How will they handle loading and unloading? How will they handle inclement weather? What is the insurance liability for putting them on public roads? Who will be sued when a driverless truck crashes into another car (at fault or not)? Even Mercedes says in that article, "the Highway Pilot s…

>How will the trucks refuel? Full serve gas stations. >How will they handle loading and unloading? Do long haul drivers typically load/unload themselves these days? I would have thought that would have been the task of the warehouse staff on either end. >How will they handle inclement weather? Probably better than human driven trucks why would you think they couldn't? >What is the insurance liability for putting them…

[deleted]

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#87

Post by 6d0debc071 »

EpicEng wrote: post #81
the_ancient wrote: post #21

It is not a matter of paying "more" but changing how they pay Most Truckers are paid by the mile... So if your sitting in traffic no pay (next time your stopped in traffic look around, how many semi's are sitting with you, most of those drivers are doing it for free) Then there is load and unload time, which for some companies is non-paid, other is a nominal flat rate of like $35 that could take up hours of your day.…

If I take a contract job which pays $X / deliverable then I may end up doing some "free" work as well if something comes up that I hadn't accounted for. Same goes for my day job when I work past 6 (exempt, of course). Not all jobs are hourly. Why should this change for truckers and no one else? Are you proposing that all jobs should pay for every minute of work? I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, but I'm intere…

In contracting the company or person hiring you generally knows very little about programming and even less about yourself. You have the information advantage, you usually price the job, and you know how hard you're going to work and how long these sorts of jobs usually take you. It makes sense in that context for you to carry the risk if you choose to be paid by deliverable.

Whereas, if you're a trucker, you don't know any more than the company does about whether the gods of traffic are going to take a dump on you that day - and there's not a whole bunch you can do about it. In that context it doesn't seem to me to make much sense to pay on that sort of basis.

The point of paying with a target is - at least when you're not trying to screw people out of money - to tie reward to the risks that they can control. If they can't control the risk, it becomes little more than a way of concealing from people what the take-home is going to be.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#88

Post by burkaman »

l33tbro wrote: post #43

Hmmm, why are we still talking about truck drivers exactly? The trucking industry is about to tank hard. Mercedes demo'd its first driverless truck a couple of weeks ago (!). Yes, there will be specialists drivers sure and niche companies. But the day of the interstate road train will be done shortly. The biggest new niche in my mind will be vehicle security. These trucks will be flying solo across the nation - unman…

Even that article puts a minimum of 10 years before automated trucks get on the roads. So, we're talking about truck drivers because it's not acceptable to forget about them for a decade "because they'll be gone someday."

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#89

Post by 6d0debc071 »

smm2000 wrote: post #82
georgemcbay wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parking shouldn't be a difficult task for a self-driving truck; but I suspect there will be a 'driver' along for the ride well after the task is mostly automated, just to deal with exceptional circumstances (eg. flash flood has made road impassable in some way the automated truck cannot deal with) and also to act as a security guard so nobody robs the robo-truck.

I doubt security guard is really required, at least in US, Europe and most other developed countries. Container is closed and it's easy to install device that calls police in case it's opened mid-way. Also most trucks transport goods that are difficult to steal and sell profitably (low price, high weight - think groceries, furniture, etc).

Theft from HGVs isn't hugely rare. People will cut right through the side of them. I think it was on the order of £25-30 million a year in the UK, last I checked (2010-ish)

And then there's the value of the fuel in the vehicle.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#90

Post by rdtsc »

x0x0 wrote: post #32
polarix wrote: post #5

> But corporate America has become so parsimonious about paying workers outside the executive suite that meaningful wage increases may seem an unacceptable affront. In this environment, it may be easier to say “There is a shortage of skilled workers” than “We aren’t paying our workers enough,” even if, in economic terms, those come down to the same thing.

And it's not like trucking is a good job. For that princely (!!!) $41k / year, you are often away from home. I'd bet you don't get comped for all the meals you eat on the road either, so there goes a bunch of money spent eating out, even if it is just at truck stop diners. If you have a family, and and your partner has a job -- as he or she must, given that shit salary -- knock $4-$10k/year off for daycare as well. I…

But then again it is rather interdependent. Why would they want to pay more if they get enough people knocking on their door.

In other words for everyone saying "hell no" there is another that say "ok, i have no choice, i'll take it" well the business moves on.

I have also heard some East Europeans (Polish for ex) drivers come here (not sure on what kind of visa) and they are willing to work for much less, then send money home. Same patterns as farm workers from Latin America working here.

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