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Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

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Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#91

Post by zmanian »

Running a Tor exit node, developing encryptions tools , working on government transparency and protecting journalists are all seen as dissent in the current environment.

The reason to engage in these activities is a duty to protect democracy and democratic values in an extremely adversarial environment.

It is unwise to do these things without some kind of strategy to manage the escalation of political repression. It is advisable to do participate in these things as part of the broader activist community. Nothing is riskier that being a solo democracy activist.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#92

Post by esbranson »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #82
esbranson wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Citation needed. It is hard to prove a negative or prove something has not happened. I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader. > American style juries which are seen in a very bad light over here That neither supports nor refutes my argument that Austrians have no clue about Austrian style juries. > Personally I would much rather have to deal with an Austrian court than an American one. I would much rather deal…

> That neither supports nor refutes my argument that Austrian's have no clue about Austrian style juries. It's very hard to refute that claim because you did not provide any sources for yours either. I would not know how to judge how Austrians see courts besides my limited exposure to the few law related classes I took and observing one of our most popular judges for a day and that obviously is personal bias. > I wou…

Well its not the courts themselves but the law which forms them. But the differences are fast becoming only theoretical.

Now, mind you, Continental judiciaries have a superior administrative tribunal system which is a recognized part of their judiciary. The United Kingdom has even recently adopted this approach. It is only the United States AFAIK that continues to insist that some judges are not part of the judiciary--which is an obvious falacy. The judiciary adjudicates--that is its purpose. We call them variously as "administrative law judges" (ALJs), "traffic commissioners" and "magistrates", etc. America essentially has two judiciaries--one independent of the executive, the other not independent. It's retarded. Its unconstitutional.

And apparently Austria uses what are, in effect, Anglo-American juries. They are selected at random from the electorate. They decide questions of fact. I don't see the lack of separation between "trier of fact" and "trier of law" as obviously better or worse.

And, as people are pointing out, there are inroads being made for a form of stare decisis such as Art. 177 EEC. So there is progress on all fronts IMO.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#93

Post by VexXtreme »

xienze wrote: post #83
lawl wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Came here and to post this too. It's really a shame how the current system of law enforcement is designed to destroy completely destroy people. I'm idling in some of the same public IRC channels as will (since way before he was raided for running a TOR node) it was/is painful to watch how this completely destroyed him. It has really put me off, and probably many others, from ever hosting a TOR node, which might what…

> If you want to help people in heavily censored (or monitored, but what would be every single one of them, as of now) countries you get punished and your life gets completely ruined. I know that's the dream of everyone running a Tor node but let's face it, you're mostly helping drug dealers and child pornographers operate. Not saying that's your intention, but that's what's happening. That's why it's absolutely craz…

I had to downvote and here's why:

> you're mostly helping drug dealers and child pornographers operate

You could argue the same about encryption, so should encryption be banned or deemed immoral now?

> That's why it's absolutely crazy to operate a node.

Again, you could say this for any company that builds crypto software.

> Find some other way to help if you value your freedom.

You can still operate a TOR exit node safely by anonymously getting a server paid for with a cryptocurrency. It's perfectly safe.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#95

Post by drzaiusapelord »

cookiecaper wrote: post #56
downandout wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I disagree with them, there are a multitude of laws in most countries that make operating a TOR exit node a very bad idea. The concept of criminal responsibility for enabling the illegal acts of others, even when you don't know specifically what others are going to do with the tools you provide, is well established in the US and other countries. Perfect example: Ryan Holle of Florida is serving life without par…

This is why the concept of jury nullification is important. Yes, it's good to have laws that punish accessories, but that kind of thing is obviously not the intended case. No rational person would accept that outcome under normal circumstances, but jurors are essentially bullied by the legal establishment, which holds them in fairly clear disdain, and told they must deliver a ruling based on certain rules without con…

Holle knew they were going to use his car in a robbery. I imagine most juries would still punish even if they knew of nullification. The parent poster mislead you into thinking Holle was ignorant of what the car was used for.

I'd convict him considering the circumstances. He is an accomplice.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#96

Post by hueving »

downandout wrote: post #90
danielweber wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The jury doesn't get to make up laws or charges. Halle was convicted specifically under Florida's felony murder law, which lists a number of felonies (including arson, escape, home invasion, and carjacking) that, if you participate in them, you are liable for any murders that occur during them. We might someday find that everyone is responsible for their Internet connection. But it won't be because of felony murder l…

You're being pedantic. The point is that there are similar laws regarding conspiracy that are even more broad, that could easily put an exit node operator in prison.

Could you share some of these laws? I'm curious because I haven't heard of such a case in the US.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#97

Post by [deleted] »

teamhappy wrote: post #74
teamhappy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately this hasn't been the first case like that and it probably won't be the last one either. Saying they destroy peoples lives on purpose isn't fair though. Everybody setting up an exit node knows there's some chance the police will knock on your door one day or at the very least you'll end up getting a lot of letters. Projects like https://www.torservers.net exist for that very reason. I understand donating…

@sp332: >> I don't get how the rest of your comment supports this statement. It doesn't. I didn't make that statement - you did. I said they don't destroy lives _on purpose_. Neither are they trying to stop people from running exit nodes. They don't know what an exit node is. Somebody is doing nasty things using Tor. They look at the Whois record. Your name pops up. They knock on your door. End of story (I don't like…

[deleted]

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#98

Post by schoen »

Spooky23 wrote: post #71
jdjb wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ISPs know that the internet is used for drug deals and criminal activities. Should we prosecute them too? Gun dealers also know their guns can be used to shoot people. Are they culpable in every murder?

The difference is that ISPs are regulated, and part of that regulation is that they must intercept traffic.

I don't follow this distinction, at least in terms of U.S. law.

Every kind of entity can receive orders under the Wiretap Act, whether it's "regulated" or not. My friend who runs the server where I have my e-mail could receive such an order.

Until the D.C. Circuit accepted law enforcement's reinterpretation of CALEA in 2006, ISPs were not required to buy or have wiretapping equipment, but they were required to comply with wiretap orders to the best of their ability.

Tor node operators are presumably also legally required to comply with wiretap orders to the best of their ability.

Does your theory suggest that ISPs' liability would have been different before 2006 because no specific regulation treated them differently from Tor node operators with respect to wiretap obligations then?

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#99

Post by xienze »

VexXtreme wrote: post #93
xienze wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to help people in heavily censored (or monitored, but what would be every single one of them, as of now) countries you get punished and your life gets completely ruined. I know that's the dream of everyone running a Tor node but let's face it, you're mostly helping drug dealers and child pornographers operate. Not saying that's your intention, but that's what's happening. That's why it's absolutely craz…

I had to downvote and here's why: > you're mostly helping drug dealers and child pornographers operate You could argue the same about encryption, so should encryption be banned or deemed immoral now? > That's why it's absolutely crazy to operate a node. Again, you could say this for any company that builds crypto software. > Find some other way to help if you value your freedom. You can still operate a TOR exit node…

> You could argue the same about encryption, so should encryption be banned or deemed immoral now?

Sigh. This sounds just like the arguments about cars ("they can kill people, should we ban them too???"). Let's get real, the vast majority of Tor traffic is, shall we say, for nefarious purposes. Encryption has numerous applications which are perfectly legitimate and it could be argued that the legitimate applications outweigh the illegitimate ones. You might have a point if "encryption" meant "operating an open relay where anyone can encrypt anything for any purpose".

> You can still operate a TOR exit node safely by anonymously getting a server paid for with a cryptocurrency. It's perfectly safe.

Safe for whom? You as an individual, perhaps. Definitely not safe for the guy running the exit node.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#100

Post by downandout »

hueving wrote: post #96
downandout wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being pedantic. The point is that there are similar laws regarding conspiracy that are even more broad, that could easily put an exit node operator in prison.

Could you share some of these laws? I'm curious because I haven't heard of such a case in the US.

I don't think one has been pursued here yet, but it doesn't mean they can't or won't. Our conspiracy laws are very broad.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371

That's the federal one, and each state has their own.

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